Discovering the Divine Within: Personal Journeys with the Gita's Teachings

In this thought-provoking episode, hosts Kamala Rose and Nischala Joy Devi delve into the multifaceted character of Krishna and his role in the Bhagavad Gita. They explore the contrast between the beloved, beautiful Krishna of the Vrindavan forest and the stern, warrior-like Krishna who serves as Arjuna's charioteer on the battlefield.

The hosts share their personal experiences and perspectives on Krishna, discussing how their own spiritual journeys have shaped their understanding of this central figure. They also examine the inclusive message of the Gita, where devotion and service are open to all, regardless of gender or social status.

Main topics include:

• The contrast between Krishna as a playful, loving figure and as a stern warrior
• Personal reflections from the hosts on their own spiritual journeys with Krishna
• The Bhagavad Gita’s message of inclusion, emphasizing devotion and service for all
• Insights into Krishna’s dual nature and its relevance for modern audiences
• A feminine perspective on worship, devotion, and spiritual practice in the context of the Gita

Listeners will gain insights into the evolution of Krishna's character and the timeless wisdom of the Gita, made accessible for contemporary spiritual seekers.

Transcript

Unknown: 0:02

Namaste. Welcome to a woman's Gita podcast, a modern discussion of the Bhagavad Gita by and for Western women. A women's Gita features discussions on the Bhagavad Gita, the timeless classic of Eastern wisdom, reinterpreted from the perspective of two female teachers, your hosts are Nischala Joy Devi and Kamala Rose, who have dedicated their lives to the yoga tradition at a time when women's voices are finally emerging, a feminine perspective of the wartime treatise could not be more timely.

Kamala Rose: 0:42

Namaste, Welcome to a woman's Gita. Bhagavad Gita, by and for Western women, I'm Kamala rose and I'm Nischala Joy Devi. Today, we would like to talk about some of the cast of characters in the Bhagavad Gita and understand some of, as always, some of the important lessons that we learn in the Gita. So I'd like to start by talking today about Krishna, understanding some of how he ends up on the battlefield with Arjuna, who is Krishna in the Bhagavad Gita, and who is Krishna in the larger mythology? But I'm going to start with who is more of my Krishna. Many of you in the yoga community are familiar with the term Ishta Devata. An Ishta Devata is one's own chosen or personal deity. And it sort of represents the the amalgamation of qualities that are favorable to you and for me. This has always been Krishna. I have in the work of working with Nischala on the Gita I've been tracing when this relationship started and how, but I seem to have always known Krishna, and always had him on my team, in my in my heart, working with The Gita come to know part of Krishna, that Krishna as the teacher and Krishna on the battlefield in a different way, maybe than he lives in my heart and maybe in yours too. So I want to start with a simple story. As many of you know, I spent some time in India as a small child, and a lot of my early imprints came from that time. My father was an academic and was leading a study group across the country studying different subjects in the humanities, sociology and political science. And during that time for my fourth birthday, he took me to the Ganges, and all I remember is that once we left the holy river, my memories started. I remember vividly the hotel where we were staying, and so many of the people that I met at that time, for a four year old child, the world is magical. The cities are magical. I have memories of getting lost and following lizards into a town square and encountering a king cobra. All of these came together to make this Krishna that I have always loved. One of the earliest stories that I remember was when my family went to live on a house boat in Srinagar, and I met at that time, a child somewhere around my age, who I spent the weeks that we lived there, playing with every single day we were inseparable. I remember that I had no idea if it was a little boy or a little girl. It was just a magical child who kept me company, and we had a wonderful time together. And I have the feeling that when we left the houseboat and moved on, traveled somewhere else, I met another child at that point, and I feel like that was my experience of India. Was seeing so many children who embraced me so much. I bring this up because I feel that each of us has an Ishta Devata that's very unique to them in this way, and it really is built on memories and favorable experiences. When I think about that. Time in my life, I remember feeling loved and adored by my parents. I love I feel. I felt adored by the children who were around me and embraced by India. So it seems an easy abstraction to why the blue God became so found such a good place in my heart. I grew up with pictures of Krishna around our home. Have still have those pictures today, paintings of Krishna in the river with the gopis. And honestly, as a child, I didn't ask much about it. I didn't know much about it. And my parents were not devotees of Vedanta or Krishna consciousness. My father was an academic, and really came to the Upanishads as an academic, and was always taken by the mystical, transcendent quality of their teachings. So also in my image of Krishna is my wonderful relationship with my father, who was really my first teacher, and I don't remember a conversation with him ever that didn't deal in some way with the the pros and cons of religion. So a lot of fond memories, a lot of happy things, woven into my image of this blue God. Wasn't until later learning when I went to an ashram, and I learned about yoga, that he was the one associated with yoga, the one with the peacock feather, the androgynous one, the beautiful one who's always with flowers and often seen and embraced with beautiful women. And he just says beauty as an artist, that's very appealing to me, expressions of beauty, expressions of excellence, of anything that sparkles of meaning. And these are the things that I associate with Krishna. This is why I call myself a devotee. This is why I identify Krishna as my Ishta Devata, but I also want to say there's, there's more parts to me too, right? I'm very much a drawn to history at a more academic take. I would consider myself more of a religious nun than anything else, not belonging to any of the world faiths, but I do have a special place, especially for the child, the magical child, Krishna in my heart. How about you? Nishtula,

Nischala Joy Devi: 7:55

I was going to ask, though, how does that beautiful Krishna and I know exactly those paintings you're talking about. They're delightful. They're just literally mystical. When you look at some of those paintings, I have some myself that I've gotten in India that are just so pure, so so beautiful. But how? How do you reconcile the one that's so beautiful with the one driving the chariot? I guess that's what was the hard part for me, just seeing who, who are these two? Is it their Alter Ego? Who is this?

Kamala Rose: 8:39

Well, that's a great question. And I know I had that question for many years, how do these two go together? And it brought me to reading some of the Hari vamsha and some of the Puranas to learn more about where's the continuity between these characters. One of the things I learned is the Krishna that we see in the Bhagavad Gita is is probably a that image is probably a descendant of a much earlier time, much closer to that Bronze Age time of the Mahabharata, where a deity who will assure victory in war. That's when he was called Vasudeva, and a long time before he became the beautiful Krishna of the Vrindavan forest that we see later. So this is a later evolution that comes after the rise of bhakti in India, which is more medieval,

Nischala Joy Devi: 9:46

yeah, because I think that most people will have one of those two images, either the beautiful paintings that they see with, usually with Radha or the gopis, something that's. What I would consider the lover, whereas here he's the charioteer, the guru, if you would say, and also talking very differently. No, he didn't talk like that to the gopis. The gopis would not have stayed around if he talked like that to them. So it's just interesting to see this dichotomy of how he can be in one and I think that it's not unusual for the same person to be like that. I mean, I think all of us are like that. I act differently with one person than another because of the interaction that happens so but it's just curious to hear your beautiful rendition of it, and then to think of the same one now in this battlefield that will become, in a few moments, quite bloody and quite awful. So that's that's what. But thanks for explaining that, because I think that that's something that's curious to many of us.

Kamala Rose: 11:05

I agree, and it's been challenging for me, and as you know, in working with the text of the Gita that we have this Partha Swami, this charioteer image of Krishna, who is completely different than this soft teenager. Just to give a quick timeline, yeah, the the early days of Krishna, these were written. These stories were written a little bit later, or compiled a little bit later. But we have, we have a story of a prince who has to be hidden from the powers that be, much like the birth of a certain rabbi, and hidden from those powers that be, brought hidden In a very humble cow herding community so that he can grow up and survive away from the four negative forces that are trying to get him. And so this is that time period of early Krishna. We have the butter thief, right, the beautiful little child who's just naughty, yes, little Gopala. And I mean being a mother, I'm very I love this. I love the little naughty baby. And one of my favorite stories is when his his foster mother, Yashoda, holds him and scolds him for stealing the butter, and he answers by opening his mouth and showing his universal form, yeah, it's a it's a wonderful story. And I, I feel like so many of these stories, for me, they really go into a sort of a theoretical science place. Is what I always think of when I hear about Krishna forms and some of these stories that are attributed to him. When he grows up in the cow herding community. He's known for saving the people, right? He saves them from a flood, he seemed saves them from fires, and so he becomes kind of the champion of the downtrodden. He's the guy who's in who's for the little guy. And that's something very, very loved.

Nischala Joy Devi: 13:35

And I think again, it's the different personalities, the different stages of life, and the different stages that we go through that we like the baby Krishna or the cow heart or the Krishna, etc. But, you know, it's interesting as I listen to you, I have a very different background and a different way of looking at these things, my parents were not religious, or I wouldn't say they weren't spiritual. They were kind people, but there was never any religion in our house, and they, even when I asked about it, they would say, if you want something, go out and find it. So I did. When I was young, I went to every place I could, every different denomination I could, trying to find what I had experienced as a child, my parents were very tolerant and very accessible in a lot of ways, in that I was having visions as a child, and would always see auras, which, of course, I didn't know what it was. I would just say to my mother, why does that woman have that yellow coming out of her fingers? And my mother would just say, I don't know, but forget it. At it. Let's talk about something else. So there was nothing there to do that. And I just accepted that. That's what it was, I think, like children have imaginary playmates I had. I watched people's colors coming out of them, and saw visions and things like that. And then I became a teenager, which I don't think I have to explain to anyone what that means. But then I started to get hungry after my late teens, and I said, there's something more to this. I want to find out what it was. And I hadn't found any kind of gratification going to these religious institutions. Unlike you, Kamala, I did not want a particular person or form of person to pray to. I had learned that everybody was part of the Divine by my experience, by looking at them. I would even say to my mother, I love this person, I love that person. And she would say to me, you can't love everybody. And I would say, why? Where does it say I can't love everybody? So it was a very different kind of experience. Why I chose yoga as my path is because I felt like I wasn't being forced to worship anything or anyone. This was a system to me at that time, I still remember walking up to the integral Yoga Institute at that point and saying, I don't want to learn hatha yoga. I know medicine, I know the body. I want to learn Raja Yoga. That's what I want to do. I want to be self realized. And they looked at me like I was crazy. This is a first time student walking in, and that's how the path went. So also the path I went to which I didn't understand at the time what it was, because I had no frame of reference. But it turned out that I was under for many, many years, the tutelage of a male

Kamala Rose: 17:17

Indian

Nischala Joy Devi: 17:19

shevite who believed in Shiva, worship, Shiva as my guru. All of a sudden, I was flung into this system that I didn't know about. And why Shiva? Why was I drawn to that path? Because I wanted to meditate, and I wanted to get to realization, and Shiva Shankara is the one for that. But still, I was backing off because I didn't want anybody in there telling me what to do. And of course, I have now chosen a male Indian guru who loved to tell people what to do. That was what he did. Well, you can imagine, I always laugh, and I tell people, we had four vows that we took. We took the vow of celibacy, we took the bow vow of selfless service to the humanity. We took the vow of poverty. But the hardest vow for me was obedience, because to me, the only obedience in this world is the obedience to my own heart and mind after the purification happens. That's who you listen to. So embarking on the Gita is something I've been looking at for years and years and years, and really didn't have the ability to do it at that point because of this supreme deity. That's probably why I moved into the Yoga Sutras. There is no deity. There's no presiding deity in this sutras. It's just a cookbook how to how to get to realization. So suddenly I'm thrust into this book where the teachings are sublime. I hold them as the highest, especially living in the world. It really teaches us that, however, who is the Teacher? So what I've chosen to do and how I can really go ahead with it, I've moved Krishna up a few notches to that unmanifested, omnipresent nobody. No human characteristics that to me, then fits in every single person's heart, and when I look at them, they become my Ishta, devata. So for me, that's how I. See it. That's how I form it, because I learned, after sitting for years and years in an ashram, that no human is perfect, and as we see their flaws, it can actually do the opposite of inspiration. It can actually cause doubt, and that's why I think most of the teachers keep away from their students. You see them at Satsang, you may see them once in a while, but you stay away from them, because if you start to see their human frailties, it's very difficult to then take suggestions from them, take orders from them, and definitely difficult to worship them.

Kamala Rose: 20:51

Yes, that worship, that's an important thing to bring up the idea of worship. And I found in teaching the Gita, if there's one word Westerners don't want to hear, it's worship, and don't want to hear about a supreme lord or people who represent that Supreme Lord, I I just, I think we agree that so many of our so many of our religions have let us down. So many of the people in charge have let us down. And it you know, that's difficult and reconciling in a text like the Bhagavad Gita, that where Krishna says, you know, identifies personally as this supreme person you know, and speaks in the speaks in the first person as the creator of all things. I mean, for me, I've, I've always held it loosely and seen more that it's, it's more of a poem, bringing, bringing a vision to the act of creation and to the beauty of nature. And this is, this is just where I'm coming from. And early in my path, when I, when I went to the ashram where I spent many years, I had an experience in cosmic consciousness that lasted for quite a while. And it was in that time that I first learned of Patanjali, yoga sutra, and I also read The Tao of physics and came to a very universal idea that was very interwoven with nature, right? So it's not difficult for me to put the charioteer aside and hang on to this theoretical idea that I is very comforting, kind and reassuring to me. I think what you're what you're saying, is so important that there's the idea of what exists in, let's say, the utopia of our own hearts, and then in the reality of the world. And this is a huge contrast, and it does lead to a lot of disappointment, yet

Nischala Joy Devi: 23:14

most of the world worships someone, and I think that that's something, as I look around, I mean, most of the major religions, you're worshiping something, whether even if it's a book, you're still worshiping something. And I think it's very difficult for humans not to have a physical form to understand and to worship. That's why it's been created over and over and over again, and also the different forms, just like you were saying with with Christian, it's the same thing with with Christianity. There's the Sacred Heart of Jesus, and then there's, of course, Mary, who softens everything. And then there's the the the aspect that it's going to punish, etc. So there's all these different aspects to the same aspect of of divinity. My guess is, and I don't know this for sure, but it seems to be that as people have these awakenings, like you're describing that you had, and I know a lot of people have had, most people don't talk about them unless you bring it out of them. But my guess is that once you get those experiences, the Ishta Devata becomes less significant than it was before, and instead you see the essence of that, instead of the human form of it. And again. Again, most people like to talk to somebody, and I see sometimes I just go into a church, and I'll just sit there and watch people come in with their sincere and beautiful faith that they come in with, and they'll come in, and some of them sit there, especially in Europe, I've seen these older women sitting in there for hours, and I feel like they're having this personal relationship with Jesus. They're talking to him. She and my guess is he's talking to them in some way too. It's a beautiful thing to see, if that's your temperament. If it's not, there's nothing you can do about it is very difficult. So I think that's why in spiritual books, there needs to be some kind of alternative. And I think that's what we're doing with the Gita. We're trying to take a lot of that worship and a lot of that devotion and instead bring in an empowerment of the individual to be able to understand these teachings and to live the teachings, which is the most important part. So I don't think there's any one way. I think there's the bhakti way. There's the Yana way. You know, for instance, someone like Swami Vivekananda, who brought yoga to this country, I think we talked a little bit about him, and he was a very interesting mix. So he was both a bhakti and a Yani, and he loved his teacher, his guru, Sri Ramakrishna. He loved him with all his heart, and yet he would spy on him to see, is he actually doing what he said he was going to do, even though, in from a bhakti standpoint, he adored him, but was he really living what he said? So he would look in the keyholes, he would snoop around and see Is he really following it? And when he was satisfied that his guru did this, he had 100% obedience to Him, because He trusted that he was pure and going to only take him in that right direction. So I think there's a lot of discrimination that's needed when we pick a niche to Davida or not pick a niche to Davida, and I think we have to also be careful of not throwing literally the baby out with the bathwater. If there's something that offends us in any of these texts, put it to the side, just put it as a footnote, and go to the essence of what are they trying to say. I think when I'm writing, that's my main thing that I always say to myself, What are they trying to say? Not What did they say, but what are they trying to tell us? What's the message here? Because sometimes the words are not effectual,

Kamala Rose: 28:09

especially dealing with words like worship.

Nischala Joy Devi: 28:13

Yes, exactly, exactly. What does that mean?

Kamala Rose: 28:17

This couldn't be. It's very foreign to Westerners, and it doesn't necessarily mean that you are on your knees in a church or in a temple, and it doesn't have to follow any particular form. I think that, from one of the things you just said to I think that a very important, effective form of bhakti that's been a big part of my life in practice, is to worship by helping other people. I don't see that it's effective. Is this something I've come to myself that I just don't spend my time in puja and prayers the way I used to, I find it much more effective to work directly with people and to to help where I can in the world. We could call this a more humanist ethic, but for me, it's somewhere in the salad of my world and my head and my heart. It seems to work. It's a it seems to be a very valid way of, quote, worshiping Krishna by serving the people around me. I think

Nischala Joy Devi: 29:30

this is what Mother Teresa did. She had the same effect what she said. It was very interesting story, this young woman who was a reporter, followed her around one day to try to see what she did and how she did it. And by the end of the day, this poor reporter was exhausted. She was just exhausted, and Mother Teresa was still going. And she looked at her and she said, how do you keep this up? Up day in and day out. She said, I'm 1/3 your age and I'm exhausted. And she looked at her, and she spoke in her very clipped way, and she said, simple mass in the morning, mass at night, and all day long, I see Jesus and everyone I serve. Simple that was it. So that's, that's the next step. I think that's the next step, because what you're seeing in that person may be an aspect of Jesus or Krishna or Moses or whoever else, Muhammad, whoever else it may be, but it's only the spark. It's it's the part that does not have the physical form to it. It's a part that has moved into someone else's physical form, into their heart, as the Upanishads tell us, where the this light and flame exist. So when you begin to have the eyes and the heart to see that divine in other people, everything changes. Everything changes. And I know that's one of the reasons I went into medicine. Who else needs you more than someone when they're in pain and suffering. That's the people. I remember one time we were in India. Was with my guru, and he took a group of us, we had the first ever holistic center in the United States as part of our ashram. And he took a group of us, because he wanted to show us how things were done in India with Ayurveda and naturopathy, etc. And we went to this one that was actually a leper colony that we went to to see what amazing things they were doing. I wanted to stay. I just, I just fell in love with the people there. They were just amazing. And they had two schools, one for the affected children who already had leprosy and one for the children that didn't. And we went into the different dorms, and they had prepared songs for us. It was just the sweetest thing. They had little bows in their hair and just they're children. They don't care if they don't make a difference. I have leprosy or not, and one of the people in my group was getting impatient, and she said, she leaned over and she said, Swamiji, aren't we going to that temple that you talked about? And he turned on her, as only Shiva can do he turned on her, and he said, temple. This is your temple. If you are a medical person, this is your temple. These are your deities. This is who you worship. If you're in medicine. And you know, after I stopped crying because my heart was just so full, I realized that that's why I chose medicine to be with these people in that time. So this is, I think, what it leads us to, who is that issue? David, and it's not one person. It can be millions or even billions of people. It depends how much we're own and evolving Yes, yes, and evolving images

Kamala Rose: 33:32

as we grow in life, we

Nischala Joy Devi: 33:34

grow, and that's due to the practices I can't say anything else other than that, and a good teacher, which most of them do say the same thing, practice, practice, practice, until you don't have to practice anymore. You have done it. You have done it. So I I think that we just really need to expand our idea. I'm not saying anyone should let go of their Ishta, devata, keep them. Love them, talk to them, be with them. But remember, when you do that, you are limiting yourself to all the other is to devise all the other people that may be able to teach you in that form. So have a balance. Have a balance with it. Yeah.

Kamala Rose: 34:30

So I'm just going to come back to the cast of characters, yes, and who Krishna, how we got to Krishna on the battlefield the early Krishna, the child the the beautiful teenager in the forest that that forest dripping with flowers and gorgeous leaves and obviously a beautiful, a beautiful, tended garden he grew up in with all of his. Friends, the gopis and gopas, the cow herders where he lived in anonymity, but saved the day many times after he took care of the business of killing the demon who had sought his demise, he regained his standing as a prince. So he moved from that pastoral setting to the neighboring large city that he was actually the prince of. So this something I was shocked to learn that Krishna was born a CA, interesting, yes, he was born in the warrior class. Yeah, yeah, that's, that's the the warrior class. That's the princely class, the ruling class, we would say, the government, the military, the police, the people in charge. So he was born as a prince, he was hidden as a cow herd, and then returns to take his place as a prince. And that's when everything changes. The narrative. It's we're no longer with that that child, any longer in the forest. Now we're with an adult who is taking care of as the prince of a city full of people who now he has to step up as a warrior and defend these people. So Krishna is very much seen as a protector, and he was already a leader, and I guess we would say a general and of his own armies in the town of Matra and the people there. Well, the people of matara were besieged on all sides in this Bronze Age, time of chariots and elephants and maces and arrows and right. So they were always getting attacked. And the stories are that Krishna picked them up and he took them west to the West Coast, to and established a city called Dwaraka. And the stories of the city are quite amazing, that he built an entire city that was on an isthmus, so three quarters of it was facing out into the sea. It was only a small part that was accessible by land. And here he built an opulent city, an artistic city, the most beautiful city anyone had seen, a safe city, a prosperous city.

Nischala Joy Devi: 37:50

And this is before or after the

Kamala Rose: 37:52

Gita. This is before before. Okay, now, so this is what Krishna is doing at some point, Arjuna marries Krishna sister, and that's, that's a story. All of these things are lengthy stories that we don't have time to get into today. But he marries his sister, and Krishna and Arjuna become dear, dear friends, right? They also become somewhat related, I see. So he is considered to be a cousin of both the Pandavas and the cowrivas, but he does have a very special relationship with Arjuna, long before the Gita. So when trouble happens, we have, we have the other storyline of what's happening in hastinapura with the story of the Mahabharata. Krishna is introduced in the Mahabharata, and when tensions really get high, he's called in to mediate between the two factions of cousins, the bond of us and the cowrivas. This is how he ends up there on the battlefield. He not only comes himself, but he brings his armies with him. Yes, he's he's ready to participate as a neighboring prince would?

Nischala Joy Devi: 39:17

Yeah. Well, that makes sense in some ways, I guess I go back to the same question again, why did they have to say war? Why do they have to have a war in the middle of this spiritual text? It seems to be a dichotomy, again, spirituality and the other I understand all that they said, but at the same time, if he was such a great prince and made this beautiful city, why would he fight again? See this is it just keeps coming back to me. And. And to me, Krishna, my image of Krishna is the lover. That's who I see. Krishna, as you know, he has his hands up in the air. He's dancing, he's singing, and all the gopis are singing with him. And you know the idea you go to a place and you do some kirtan. And it's Hari Rama, Hari Krishna with it. That's my idea. But this very different person in the Bhagavad Gita, harsh, even harsh, harsh, even Yes, yeah, there's a harshness to him. And I just wonder, I guess they thought it was necessary, but I just wonder how much of it was necessary in that way. So we go on and we hopefully tweak it so it's not as harsh and it's a little more gentle when we're offering it to people. Yet we have to remember that it did come from Krishna. All this came from him, and not just from him, but from the knowledge that poured into him. We can think of the of like a rivers just pouring knowledge into these gurus, into these avatars, into these greats that they then regurgitate it and give it back to us in a way that hopefully we can understand it so a scripture that has been done 1000s of years ago in order to relate to these times that we're living In now we're which are so different, so different.

Kamala Rose: 41:42

Entirely different. Nischala couldn't be it really couldn't be a more different world.

Nischala Joy Devi: 41:47

It was funny. I would when I was translating yesterday, there was a one they were talking about leaving the body at the time of death, and one of them said the best thing to do is to be repeating, well, they said ohm, but any mantra at the time of death. So being in a modern world like I was, I thought, you know, sometimes it's really hard. I've been around a lot of people who have died in the medical being in the medical field, and they're not always conscious. Sometimes you're unconscious. Sometimes your mind is just filled with other things. You can't focus. And I thought, Aha, but we can have a tape playing. We can have it on a loop. We can have that mantra playing. So that was the last thing they hear before they die. And I thought, I bet they couldn't put that in the Bhagavad Gita because they didn't have they didn't have streaming services in those days, they didn't have computers. So a lot of the things that we could do to help ourselves with the technology that we have even this, I mean, the fact that we're talking and people are listening to us all over the world is pretty amazing. So taking those teachings and putting them out on the airwaves in the pranic waves, I feel, is one of the best things we could do right now, but it has to be made palatable for people. That's the important thing,

Kamala Rose: 43:22

absolutely, absolutely. And I think we, I think we come to the project with a lot of, you know, a lot of heart and a lot of positive intention, and with the hopes of hopefully not offending anyone. And

Nischala Joy Devi: 43:43

which may happen, you never know. It's really hard not to offend anyone these days. Someone is somewhere out there is probably but I think what you said is the most important thing that's not our intention. Our intention is to help people understand this amazing text that they may be initially turned off by the war by the primary deity. See, if you all your life, you've worshiped Jesus, and suddenly you're reading the Bhagavad Gita, and it says to worship Krishna. Well, what I would say is just change it in your mind. That is Jesus speaking, instead of Krishna speaking, they all say the same, wonderful teachings. Why not? This

Kamala Rose: 44:31

is absolutely the last thing we could imagine Jesus doing, standing in armor, driving a chariot into the center of a battlefield. Wow, wow.

Nischala Joy Devi: 44:45

Not that part, but the speaking of the great teachings, yes, of course. And

Kamala Rose: 44:52

if you in real life situations, in the

Nischala Joy Devi: 44:54

real life situation, if you extrapolate those great teachings of Jesus from the Bible, it would. Be the Same kind of thing. It was this beautiful plethora of teachings, like a Bucha flowers, and I feel like that's also in the Gita, and that's why we're trying to extract it in some way and make that beautiful bouquet and then offer it to people. That's at least how I see it, not to offend anybody, if possible. But if we do, we're sorry. We'll just make a blanket. We're sorry right now,

Kamala Rose: 45:31

sorry. One of the things I find so compelling about this battlefield scenario, there's part of it, you almost can't look away. It does grab your attention, and it makes you continually consider how, how and why and what are the what are the facts and factors? What's the meaning of this? And I think the idea that Krishna Krishna is teaching Arjuna, who is not a priest. He is not who it has ordinarily received the teachings prior to this point, right? We, we kind of understand from the mythology that this is why Krishna is here or there at that time is to reveal the sublime truths that you know, many of which we find in the Upanishads as the mystical insights of an absolute oneness, an absolute, universal, cosmic oneness to a warrior or to a householder, someone who goes to work every day and has a family and has financial concerns and has to do the duty is, has to do duty to life and society, to family. And in doing this, not only is Krishna teaching this very unique the unique formula called Karma Yoga, where a householder is going to be receiving the benefits of monastic renunciation, as Krishna presents it In on in the 11th hour, right, right at the doorway between life and death. And as you mentioned before, you know, it's in these chapters, in chapter seven and chapter eight, 910, 1112, that we're learning about this new devotional path called bhakti that changed everything. Bhakti changed everything. Bhakti is where women were included. Bhakti is where anyone lower class, the little people, even. And I think this is something that I just I take and I hold very close in my heart about Krishna is that he's for the little guy, he's for the outsider, he's for the women. At least in this part of the theological message that we get from the Gita is that devotion is for everyone. There's no wrong way to do it, as we're talking about today, serving others, whether that is in a hospital. I work a lot with our local mutual aid efforts and do free food giveaways, free markets and free stores, trying to take care of my neighbors and always saving a tree, always saving a dog, always saving somebody, right? So it's that idea of, you know, of doing what you can in the world that I find to be a very liberating message that anyone can practice this, not just an elite few at the top, but anyone, men, women, children, anyone, can practice the path of bhakti. And it's not one size fits all.

Nischala Joy Devi: 49:09

And I think that's what most of the traditions in the world are bhakti. That's what they are. They're bhakti, and most of them have a Karma Yoga aspect to them. They do wonderful service in the world. They feed people. They build houses for people. They do all kinds of things. One time I was in India, I can't remember which place it might have been, the Krishna place, and they were telling me that their goal was to draw a circle one mile around their ashram, and everybody within that mile got food every day. They made sure that no one in that mile radius starved. And I thought, if every temple did that, if every church did that, if every. Synagogue did that, if every mosque did that, no one would be hungry, yes, would be able to feed the entire world not. It's not one person's responsibility. It's everybody's responsibility. So that bhakti again, getting back to Mother Teresa, everyone that she saw, even the one she scraped off the the cement or the pavement, when their bodily fluids had had them sticking to that, and she scraped them off and hold them in her arms so they have a moment of dignity before they died, she saw them as CR as Christ. That's who, who they were to her. She was holding them like the piata that we see in Rome with by Michelangelo holding her dead son on her lap. This is how Mother Teresa served people. So I think that it's everywhere. It's everywhere, and particularly here. What's so important to us as yogis, as yoga students, as yoga teachers, is that this charity, this karma, yoga, that we call it, is combined with meditation, is combined with the yogic practices. That's why this important book should be available to everyone. Otherwise, then they can just use any other book. But if you want to practice yoga, this joins it together. It's hand in hand, the left hand and the right hand link together and March us to that goal. And I think that's the important part of this particular scripture, as opposed to some of the others that are also great in their way and appeal to certain people. This is something especially for Westerners, which is different in that they're choosing this instead of being born into it, instead of being converted into something that they didn't know, they have actually chosen the path of yoga and for that to know what, where they can go with it, where they where are those asanas going to lead them? Where is that pranayama? With that extraordinary build up of energy within us, what do we do with it? And the Gita tells us what to do with it. You serve others. That's what you do with it.

Kamala Rose: 52:41

Well, this has been a wonderful dialog. Nishtula, I think that's a great place to end. And thank you for your wonderful stories, and we'll look forward to wonderful look forward to seeing you next time. Namaste,

Nischala Joy Devi: 52:56

Namaste,

Unknown: 53:00

thank you for joining us for a women's Gita with Nischala Joy Devi and Kamala rose, we would like to express our gratitude for the ongoing support for a women's Gita podcast and book from yoga gives back a non profit organization dedicated to the underserved women and children of India. Please join us again for our Next episode coming soon. Namaste. You.