Beyond Shaming: Reframing the Warrior's Dharma with Compassion in the Bhagavad Gita

In this episode of A Woman's Gita, hosts Nischala Joy Devi and Kamala Rose dive into the opening verses of Chapter 2 of the Bhagavad Gita. As the dialogue between the warrior Arjuna and his charioteer Krishna unfolds, we witness Arjuna's profound crisis of conscience. Overwhelmed by despair and confusion, Arjuna expresses his unwillingness to fight against his own kinsmen. 

The hosts explore how Krishna's initial harsh words of shaming and verbal beration towards Arjuna may not resonate with modern spiritual seekers. Instead, Nischala and Kamala reframe Krishna's teachings through a lens of compassion, seeking to understand Arjuna's deep-seated conflict between his duty as a warrior and his heart's aversion to violence.

The discussion also touches on the crucial role of the teacher, or guru, in the spiritual journey. The hosts share insights on discernment - what qualities to look for in a qualified teacher, and the importance of aligning one's state of mind and readiness with the guidance being offered.

Throughout the episode, listeners are invited to contemplate the universal themes of dharma, the gunas, and the complexities of the human experience as revealed in this timeless yogic text.

Transcript

Unknown: 0:02

Namaste. Welcome to A Woman's Gita podcast, a modern discussion of the Bhagavad Gita by and for Western women. A Women's Gita features discussions on the Bhagavad Gita, the timeless classic of Eastern wisdom, reinterpreted from the perspective of two female teachers, your hosts are Nischala Joy Devi and Kamala Rose, who have dedicated their lives to the yoga tradition at a time when women's voices are finally emerging, a feminine perspective of the wartime treatise could not be more timely.

Kamala Rose: 0:42

Namaste, friends. Welcome to a woman's Gita. Bhagavad. Gita, by and for Western women. I'm Kamala rose and I'm Nischala Joy Devi. Thank you so much for joining us on our last podcast. We left off at the end of chapter one with arjunas declaration that I will not fight, we discuss the state of mind, the state of being that Arjuna is in called vashata, or despondency, gloom, sorrow or despair. Today, as we begin Chapter Two, we pick up with arjunas feeling of not knowing what is the right thing to do, and we are introduced to the very first teachings of Krishna in chapter two, which is called Sankhya yoga, we're presented with an overview of the entire Bhagavad Gita. In chapter two, Krishna lays out many of the main ideas that he'll be covering throughout the Gita. And today we're going to take just the very first part of this. You the first verse in chapter two is spoken by Sanjaya, our narrator, who says, who gives us the picture? Are overwhelmed by despair at the choice before him. Arjunas eyes were filled with tears.

Nischala Joy Devi: 2:21

So let's go back to what we talked about at the end of chapter one, when we saw that this was, in fact, something that was very deep for Arjuna, and he was having what we were calling it a sympathetic nervous system reaction here, it seems that that is calming down, and what is coming now is this overwhelming despair, this hopelessness, this feeling of, what do I do next? I have these horrible choices before me. Which one do I choose? I just wanted to go back for a moment and explain some of the changes that we've done, especially here in the beginning of chapter two, and it flows through the rest of the Gita. Also, there's a lot of name calling here. There's a lot of shaming dejection, and we really didn't feel that this was life affirming or something that is useful for a spiritual aspirant. I think many of us have learned that that old saying Sticks and stones may break my bones, but names will never hurt me is not true anymore. We find that. So what we're seeing here is we have instead decided to bring out the compassionate side of Krishna to spur him on, a little more compassion, a little more understanding of the situation that Arjuna is in as we begin to listen to the teachings of Sri Krishna.

Kamala Rose: 4:09

Krishna speaks in verse two, and the Sanskrit is very famous. This opening verse of Krishna is teaching claibia mass magama, Partha Na, to Thea the Heart. Do not be weak hearted. He says, and I think we I think Nischala and I agree that for modern spiritual seeker, it really is a matter of the heart that we're addressing here. And as she said, name calling really does not help for. for. Although it's meant to spur him on and, you know, to kind of get him up and moving, it's really inappropriate for the world we live in today.

Nischala Joy Devi: 5:11

The word for diet, to me is not just heart, but it actually means the spiritual heart. There's a part of that, I don't think when they're referring to it, they're referring to the physical pump. And I think that's what's so extraordinary about the heart, because it's so many different levels. No other organ in our body has these different levels. We have the basic level that's the pump, that it does an amazing job, by the way, amazing job. It starts just shortly after conception, and it continues to go until somewhere near our last breath. It's an amazing organ that you know has a spiritual component because of the way it functions. So the physical heart pumps, and then we have the emotional heart, and that's the one that feels, that has the the the emotions in it, the fear, the caring, the the understanding, all of those things that the heart holds. When you you see someone hurting, you feel pain for them, etc. And then to me, the Frida is the next and the final level. This is the spiritual heart. This is the heart that holds compassion. This is the heart that understands we are all one. So to me, this is very, very significant to hear that this is the way they're describing. It not the function of the pump, but the function of the heart that beats the same beat and the same rhythm as all other hearts in the universe. So this is a very poignant part that we're beginning to move into this idea of Gita and uncovering the knowledge of the self. Even though this whole war is going on, there's a whole other part that's going on that really brings us to that spiritual forefront, and then it's up to us, do we want to move forward or not?

Kamala Rose: 7:30

Our translation? Where does this fear and hopelessness come from? This is Krishna speaking. You've strayed so far from your path that paves the way to heaven. This is not the time to give in to weakness, right? So we're looking at the duty, the responsibility, that Arjuna feels incapable of completing. Right? He feels at odds with in a crisis of conscience with his very duty on the battlefield. And as Nischala was describing, we're really talking about something deeper than a physical just a merely physical response. For Arjuna, this sense of duty is a spiritual duty. The sense of participation is a spiritual participation, something of belonging, not only to society, but a belonging to the universe and things making sense for him, as far as his his given path. It wasn't a chosen path, but a given path. He feels that everything that he's known previously has failed him. We're looking at the dharma of a kshetra. Kshetra is our warriors, police, administrators, rulers, and they're expected to protect the land, protect the people, and first and foremost, to uphold peace and only when no other solution is available, only then to fight. We have a big contrast with the other group of cousins who are not really following the ethical code laid out for kshetra the kshetra class. They're fighting because they want to fight. They're fighting because they are predominated by aggression. They want to have more they it's personal for them, and we have a really great contrast with the cow, with the Pandavas, who are not motivated by having more, and are really wrestling with their ethics in this situation. Thus the the weakness of heart, the lack of resolve. Yeah.

Nischala Joy Devi: 10:02

So when he says, this does not become this behavior does not become a warrior of your status, arise with a brave heart, do your duty. It's specifically tied to what Kamala was just saying about this warrior, this idea, this but I guess my question would be, are the karavas actually in Dharma, if they are using this kshatra Dharma for evil, isn't that is, isn't that against the code of what they're supposed to be doing?

Kamala Rose: 10:49

Yes, it absolutely is. And this, I think, is where we get into that larger story of the Mahabharata, that these are not just regular men, these are men who have been corrupted by a dark force, and so their their presence in the world as kshetra are, is kind of offensive to the norm, right? The the Pandavas really are fighting a good versus evil battle and trying to stay the good guys, trying to maintain that. The this, this next verse, which is actually more of the what the Sanskrit is that this behavior does not become a warrior of your status. Krishna says, the the the fact that he's given up. He says, arise, have a brave heart, right? Come with a brave heart and do your duty. I think, for modern readers of the Gita, this is, I hope, a good key to understanding why this is happening and that we don't, especially as women, we don't have to, we don't have to take this all the way to hard, in a way, it's not our duty to be warriors and to police the people in the land. That's not who we are. We're women, and they're women are not part of the kshetra Dharma doesn't really apply to us, but we do. I know you'll agree, Nischala, we do have so many times when we have to say to ourselves and to each other, arise. Come on with a brave heart, do your duty.

Nischala Joy Devi: 12:39

Do your duty, but how you do your duty? Just looking at something we've written already for this, Krishna berates Arjuna for being cowardly, and is shamefully trying to poke at his pride, trying to be a cheerleader to Arjuna, but not in the way of the feminine. He's shaming him, causing him to shrink more into himself and bring on self pity. So I think that we have to understand and maybe there's a Dharma of women. Maybe there's a whole other way that women, maybe all these casts, all these separate but is there a Dharma that says about women that we have our own creed that was taken at birth without us even knowing it, that this is something that we are here to protect and To nurture, not to destroy so when even destroying with words doesn't have to be necessarily with arrows or guns or bombs, we can destroy someone. We can take their happiness away just by saying something to them that's that's not kind. Again, we get back to the simplicity of kindness, just something to be able to move forward from Think of something nice about that person. You know, it just doesn't make sense to berate someone and to push them into to go to them, because what you're doing is you're bringing out a side of them that they don't even like there's not even a comfort in it. So you're allowing them to do that. And then he goes into 1224, before me are teachers fit to be worshiped. How can I shoot arrows at those whom I venerate? I'm not I. I understand that. You're told your whole life, respect your elders, respect the people who are your relatives, and all of a sudden, now fight them, shoot them, kill them. So the confusion is just overwhelming to him as it would be, I think. To all of us, and he says it would be better, indeed, to live on alms in the world rather than to slay these esteemed teachers. If I kill them for worldly gain, all my earthly pleasure will be stained with their blood. See, he's talking now about them, but how was he feel? How can he get up every single morning and face the day knowing that he's done this? See, I think this, what they're not looking at is long term consequences. They're looking at the immediate. And I think as women, we have no choice but to look at something in the future. If we're even doing something simple, like going to the park with our children, right? It's not just, Oh, come on, let's go. And you could jump in the car and go. No, you have to plan on snacks. You have to plan on drinks. If they're little, you have to plan on diaper or clothes chain. You know, you see some of these mothers going to the park, they look like Pack Mules because there's so much that they have to bring in preparation. They're anticipating. And what I hear here is there's no anticipation. They're not seeing what happens at the end, when there's these bloody bodies laying there, and you have to go back and say to the wives and the children and the mothers and fathers, these people are gone. For what? For what? You can't replace that. So this is what I'm experiencing when I read the first part of this, and then he goes on and he becomes a little bit Meeker. See, there's a meekness that happens because he's so confused he doesn't know what to do, and he's overwhelmed. I'm confused, and don't know which way would be better, that we should conquer them or they should conquer us after slaying our kin. What would we Why would we wish to live right? This is exactly what I'm saying. You get up every morning. It never leaves you. And I think on a smaller scale, many of us have done something, maybe we said something carelessly to someone and hurt their feelings. Right? This happens, and then what you wake up in the middle of the night. Why did I say that to her? I saw her face. I saw the way she looked. Why did I do that? So if something that small would stay with us, imagine slaughtering hundreds and hundreds of people.

Kamala Rose: 17:54

And truly, for Arjuna, this is an incredible conflict with what he knows to be the right thing to do, that you just don't kill family. It's, it has, it has made it all not work any longer. And you're absolutely you brought up so many great points. Nishchala on the consequences of this. You know, we're here with Arjuna on the battlefield looking at his grandfather and at his teacher, Drona. These two will have to be killed in order for the war to be over. And in fact, we know from the Mahabharata that it's not until Bhishma, the grandfather of both the cowrivas and the Pandavas until he dies, that the war is declared over, and that lasts a long time. He takes this he takes his time in passing. So this idea, I'm confused and do not know which would be better, that we should conquer them or that they would conquer us. Which one is better after slaying our kin? Would we wish to live after that? The Mahabharata makes, makes it very clear that the Pandavas wrestled with this for the rest of their lives. Yeah, stayed with them like, like you said. You said before, it's like a post traumatic stress, yeah, that they'll carry with them for the rest of their lives. Never really certain whether it was righteous, yes,

Nischala Joy Devi: 19:34

exactly. If there is this even such a thing as a righteous war, if that's even a concept, you know, you said something very interesting that kind of stuck in my brain for a moment, when you said, he they can't kill their their family. And so what I'm wondering we're at the beginning of the Gita, when we get to the end, and. Do they start to see everyone as their family? That's to me, see that's, that's what yoga is to me. Or one of the things that it is that you begin by saying, Oh yes, this is my blood relative. This is my blood relative. And then you start to realize, as you go out, that who isn't your relative, who isn't your your kith and kin, everybody, the whole world, becomes that. So what? And I really believe that Arjun is feeling that on a certain level, and maybe he has a difficulty expressing it, but he's his fear. And we know that that fear syndrome too. It grabs us by the neck sometimes, and we just can't even speak. Our words won't come out. We stutter. We're so scared, and I really feel that that's what's going on with him, and what that does it clouds the mind. The mind can't be clearer when that something like that happens, my very being is overwhelmed with sorrow and is confused about what is the right thing to do, which is the better choice? I beg you. Will you be my teacher? He's he's laying down at the master's feet. He's saying, I don't know, I surrender. Tell me, what do I do?

Kamala Rose: 21:31

This verse is packed with meaning. We're on two seven. My very being is overwhelmed with sorrow and is confused about what is the right thing to do, this idea of my very being, another beautiful, technical Sanskrit term called swabhava. Arjuna says My swabhava is overwhelmed, right? And swabhava means one's essential nature. So he's saying at the very core of my being, the very core of who I am, and part of who he is, is as a warrior who upholds this ethical code, right? So he's saying it's not working with who I know myself to be, who I have learned that I am, who the world has told me I am, and who I personally feel myself to be. Right the swabhava is, it's one's own nature and who we are as a unique combination of the Gunas of sattva, rajas and tamas, right? He's feeling overwhelmed. Overwhelmed is a tamasic feeling. Sorrow is a tamasic feeling, confusion is a tamasic feeling. It's heavy. It breeds inertia. So we find Arjuna swabhava here as tamasic, heavy and unable to move, filled with very heavy feelings. And so he really, he doesn't know. So what you're saying Nischala about is he even able to make any type of decision with this type of heavy mental space, heavy heart space, that he's in. Could he make a decision,

Nischala Joy Devi: 23:31

and if he does, which he does, in this case, makes a decision? Is it something that's going to be going toward life, toward fulfillment, rather than keeping him stuck where he is. And I think this is a really good time to look at this, because it says, I beg you, will you be my teacher? And I think we really have to look at this, because what does that mean to be a teacher. And of course, the Sanskrit word is guru. Guru, that which removes darkness is really what we're talking about here, as a teacher, as a guru. And if you choose a guru in a state like he's in, it's not going to be the same teacher that you're going to choose if you're in a satwork state, and I think this is really something that we have to look at, even in our modern society. Who are we choosing, and are we choosing teachers that help us where we are right now, or are we choosing teachers that are going to take us to the place that we want to go. And this seems to be a very interesting I hear a lot of people say, Oh yeah, my teacher this. My teacher this. And I wonder, what level are we talking about with teacher. So the question comes to me, is a teacher always a guru? And we have now a plethora of teachers that are claiming to be yoga teachers. And I question that. I question, are they really yoga teachers, or have they really just grasped a certain aspect of yoga, and that's what they're going with, you know, I've talked a lot about my time in medicine, because it was a very important time in my life, and also it taught me a lot of things, because, like the Gita, you're dealing with life and death almost every day, and even the spaces in between that are not maybe life and death will can lead to that. So as we choose to live in a particular way, we choose a mentor, we choose a teacher that can teach us. So for instance, if you go to a medical school, you get a very broad teaching, less experience on how the body works, how disease works, all that. But then after that, you choose a specialty. So I want to go say, into ophthalmology. I'm interested in the diseases of the eye and how to work with the eye. Then I specialize. I need a different teacher. I need a different school. I need a different guru to teach me the specialty that I want to learn. It's not general anymore. So what I see here is the same kind of thing, you ask someone to be your teacher, and one of the most important things about choosing a teacher is making sure that there is a certain level of integrity. Firstly, you should make sure that they believe that you can even go further than them, that's a great teacher. A great teacher wants the students to excel, not to say, Oh, well, I'm the teacher. Stay behind me. That's not a great teacher. I will. There's a beautiful expression that some, most of you, probably know, and it says, when the student is ready, the guru appears. I've added a second line to that, when the student is ready, the guru disappears, because we can't have this student relationship constant without making some changes for advancement, and it could be with the same teacher, but sometimes you have to go to another one who doesn't see you as a beginning student anymore, who now sees you as someone they can give the higher and better teachings. So this is what that line means to me. It's a very simple line, but that's what it means, and especially nowadays, when we're dealing with a lot of Guru misrepresentation and even criminal activities, we have to be so careful who we're choosing as a guru. But the necessity of having a teacher can't be said stronger. We don't know the path, we don't know the way. We need a guide.

Kamala Rose: 28:24

It certainly is a very important, one of the most important questions that we ask in the modern spiritual landscape. I think the the advice that you've given about finding a teacher who respects you as a learner, respects your inquiry is so important, and I know a lot of people have a difficulty navigating this. I think one point I just wanted to make is that it's because Arjuna makes this request, I beg you, will you be my teacher, that the Gita becomes possible, right? It probably would have just gone on, and he would have said, Get up, take up your arrow. They would have had the war. But because Arjuna asks, Krishna, will you be my teacher? It takes a turn, and the 18 chapters of the Bhagavad Gita are spoken, or the we'll say, these, uh, these end, 17 chapters are spoken for the benefit of all of us. But more importantly, what do we look for in a teacher, and what state of mind brings us to a teacher? I know that for myself, I as a as a young mother, I was very much that person with the big diaper bags, carrying my entire kitchen and nursery with me everywhere when I when I first met my teacher, and so I was at a place where my life had collapsed. Perhaps I didn't. I was not able to go out and have fun like young women usually do. I felt restricted by becoming a new mother and trying to navigate that world. It was, it was in that that I had a spiritual awakening that led me to my Guru. And for many, many years, and, you know, learned a lot and but I think the idea that we have to come to a point to see, when is it time to expand our learning, to expand our experience and to open up our minds to maybe more or different teachers is very important for spiritual seekers today,

Nischala Joy Devi: 30:48

and be sure to look into them. Who are these people that you're trusting yourself to? Where is their integrity? There was one teacher that I won't name who into the 90s publicly proclaimed that he still gets very, very angry. And I thought to myself, What a gift that he just gave. Because if that's what you want to be angry into your 90s, follow this person because that's how they teach, if not, choose someone who maybe has joy in their 90s or 80s or 70s or 60s or 50s or whatever. Look for the quality that you want in a teacher and then find that don't just take someone who claims something or has wonderful writings, many of them have beautiful writings, but in actuality, that's not how they treat their disciples. They're mean. They're physically violent. They're verbally violent, sexually violent. That does not bring us to that place of peace and joy and realization, run, is what I would say, Run. But let's not leave too soon, right? He says, this be my teacher. And then all of a sudden, what happens? Arjuna, having expressed his fears, said to his teacher, who just a minute ago, said, be my teacher, and now he's saying, I will not fight. And becomes silent. I

Kamala Rose: 32:43

what is in the heart of Arjuna here, he's expressed his fears, and his heart says, I will not fight. I will not fight. It's up to Krishna to encourage him to complete, to keep going in his kshetra dharma. But I think all of us as modern readers are understanding Arjuna. Very much. We understand Arjuna, not wanting to fight in this war, finding evil omens, feeling transgression in this I think understanding this about the Gita is important that Krishnas role is to encourage him to do his Dharma, even in the midst of this crisis of conscience. Yes, he's supposed to come out the other side and say, no matter what, righteousness should be upheld. And I'm going to go forward. But we see here by two nine, where Arjuna expresses his fears and says, I will not fight that he's he's far from convinced. Yeah, he's far from convinced. And, you know, and objectively, and an overview of the Gita Krishna has not really made his point yet. He's not taught him a different way of thinking that he would be able to reframe his Dharma and his action in right? So he hasn't, he hasn't been taught yet. All he said is, will you be my teacher? And I just want to return to that important point you made, Nischala, that what state of mind we have when we are entering a situation of teaching and learning, the state of mind that we enter the spiritual path with. I I know from my experience that a certain amount of disillusionment is does precipitate a spiritual awakening. So there's a certain amount of complicated feelings and lack of personal direction, that's part of that. And I think. Think this is something that the Gita can teach us, and hopefully, you and I are hoping to get across to our our audience of podcast listeners that and those who will read the book with us when it's published, that there are, there are many things to think about, whether a teacher is qualified to teach you what you're hoping to learn. What does it look like? What do the students look like? Are you able? Can you look at the students and see the people that you would like to be? Can you look at the teacher and see an evolution of the path in a way that you'd like to live at that age? Sometimes we take a teacher for a short period of time. Sometimes we stay with the teacher for a long period of time. I know that there's, you know, on both sides. Sometimes we grow complacent in a way, and find comfort in in situations we may have outgrown. On the students end, I think in all ways, there's an attitude of bravery here that we have to you know, that we have to be brave to listen to our own hearts, and we have to be brave to see beyond the illusion of some sort of perfect teacher.

Nischala Joy Devi: 36:26

I think we also come to a few of terms that I know I've used and been taught many, many times, the different kinds of gurus. And I think this is very confusing to people, they hear the word and you hear it now, you can pick up the Wall Street Journal and see it also there, talking about financial gurus, etc. So as I was taught, there's two kinds of gurus. There's the Sat Guru, which is, I think, what most people think of when they think of Guru. They think of this one sat, meaning not just truth, but beyond truth, the truth that cannot be spoken, that that kind of truth. This is the person who has experienced the realization that we're hoping to get. They have. They have moved through layers of consciousness to to bring them to a place where they can understand the truths that we're only hoping to even intellectually grasp at this point, so they can see us. They can see the color of our aura. They can understand where we're going. They understand the Dharma, they can lead us on that path. And this is the one that you stay with for years, and maybe it's for some people lifetimes. I think the major religions that have a Godhead this would be considered a Sat Guru. Then there's the other gurus that we were talking about before that, Gopi, that Kamala was talking about, that allows us to just pick up some some tips, learn some things. And we call those up a gurus. They're not the Sat Gurus, they're the upper gurus. So say you want to learn car mechanics, right? You go to an upper guru who's a mechanic, and they can teach you. If you want to learn some asanas, you may go to an Asana teacher for something like that, but don't expect those teachers to take you on to realization. And people say, Well, do I really need a teacher. I think everyone needs a teacher. Maybe not the whole time, but at least in the beginning to get you started. You know, even now, the internet is filled with tutorials. You can't buy a toaster now without having a teacher teach you how to use it. You can't get the car off the lot without someone coming and showing you they're all up gurus. But what we're talking here is a Sat Guru is someone who who sees beyond all this. And also, I just wanted to go back to another point that Kamala was making about this, Thomas, I think this line here, this 2.9 I will not fight and become silent. That is the epitome of Thomas. He has now shut down. It's almost like you can see a flower. I actually have some right outside my office that during the day, they are big, they are luscious, they are beautiful. Come evening, they close up, it's the time of Thomas, and it's the time the flowers draw in. And I see the same thing happening here with Arjuna. First he was shaking. So that's outward. Signs, and then finally he closed down, I will not fight, and becomes silent.

Kamala Rose: 40:12

That's a great place to wrap up. Thank you so much for sharing all that practical knowledge with us. The Sat Guru and the UPA guru. I know so many of us in the yoga community have studied with some wonderful UPA gurus who have passed on valuable information on the methods of asana and pranayama, but we should remember that this is only a small part of the yoga practice, and that yoga aims to teach us so much more about who we really are. So thank you for joining us today for a woman's Gita in our next podcast, we'll pick up here in chapter two and continue to explore the fascinating shlokas of the Bhagavad Gita, Namaste, friends. Namaste,

Nischala Joy Devi: 41:07

thanks for joining.

Unknown: 41:11

Thank you for joining us for a women's Gita with Nischala Joy Devi and Kamala rose. We would like to express our gratitude for the ongoing support for a woman's Gita podcast and book from yoga gives back a non profit organization dedicated to the underserved women and children of India. Please join us again for our next episode coming soon. Namaste. You.