The Kshatriya Warrior's Dharma: Balancing Justice and Compassion

In this thought-provoking episode of A Woman's Gita Podcast, hosts Nischala Joy Devi and Kamala Rose delve into the profound teachings of the Bhagavad Gita, exploring the nature of the self and the role of duty and dharma from a feminine perspective.

Topics discussed include:

• The elusive nature of understanding the self and the transformative power of deep meditation
• The mystical experience and its transcendence of traditional religious boundaries
• The four ashramas (stages of life) and the journey towards self-realization
• The ethical dilemmas of war and the concept of Kshatriya dharma (the duty of the warrior class)
• The feminine approach to ethics, emphasizing caregiving and nurturing over strict notions of justice
• Expanding the definition of motherhood and civic duty to include all women who care for others
• The broader implications of Kshatriya dharma, including the role of peacekeepers and emergency responders in modern society
• The importance of ethical reflection and the duty to contribute to the moral and ethical good in the world

Through their insightful dialogue, Nischala Joy Devi and Kamala Rose offer a fresh and empowering perspective on the timeless wisdom of the Bhagavad Gita. They invite listeners to explore their own sense of purpose and responsibility in shaping a more compassionate world.

Transcript

Unknown: 0:02

Namaste. Welcome to a woman's Gita podcast, a modern discussion of the Bhagavad Gita by and for Western women. A women's Gita features discussions on the Bhagavad Gita, the timeless classic of Eastern wisdom, reinterpreted from the perspective of two female teachers, your hosts are nistula Joy, Davey and Kamala Rose, who have dedicated their lives to the yoga tradition at a time when women's voices are finally emerging, a feminine perspective of the wartime treatise could not be more timely.

Nischala Joy Devi: 0:42

Namaste, Welcome to a woman's Gita. I'm nischay Joy Devi

Kamala Rose: 0:48

and I'm Kamala rose. Thank you for joining us today.

Nischala Joy Devi: 0:53

Today we're going to begin with sloka 229 if you remember, we've been talking about the various ways that we see the world, and here we're we're moving back into the idea of who is this self, what is this Self, and how do we see it? And 229 says. Some look on the self as a wonder. Some speak of it as a wonder. Some hear of it as a wonder. Still others, though hearing, do not understand it at all. To me, it puts a smile on my face when I read that because I think that last part is really accurate, as much as we've tried over the millennials to try to understand, what is the self? What is God? What is the spirit? What is any of it? I don't think most of us have gotten very close to it. So when they say, you don't, we don't understand it at all. I think there's a real truth in that.

Kamala Rose: 2:09

I would agree with that mischla, I think, I think this shloka, also taken from the Upanishads, is a is really a remarkable summary of the way human beings have encountered this transcendent experience that we call self, we call soul. We call divine, transcendent nature, innermost, whatever word we have for this, we know that we look at it as a wonder, something beyond ordinary, something that inspires awe in us, right? So we can look at that experience as something marvelous and beyond the ordinary. Sometimes we hear people speak about it, and our greatest teachers have spoken about it with eloquence. Hopefully, we've we've done a we've taken our taken some good words on it in the last couple podcasts, to speak about this wonder of the transcendent part of ourselves, right? Others hear about it, from those who have seen it, and still others, and anyone who's ever dragged a friend to yoga class saying, you just gotta try it. It's so great, even though hearing they don't understand it at all. Right, not everyone is interested in this transcendent goal. They can hear about it. They don't care. They don't want to know about it. Others say, What are you talking about? What's the big deal? What? What all of this attention in the great beyond different ways of experiencing something that it's difficult to put into words and summarize succinctly,

Nischala Joy Devi: 4:03

I think that's one of the reasons that we keep encouraging people as yoga, as yoga teachers, we keep encouraging our students to go for the deeper practices. Because even if you touch this place for just a moment, you will be forever changed. You will never doubt it again, because you have had that experience of it, and it only happens through deep meditation, and that's where we get our awakening. So the craving for the direct knowledge. And I think Kamala, what you were saying was so true. Most people don't, aren't interested, and this was such a shock to me, because I've always been interested. And I would say to someone, they say, Well, why do you sit for so long? Why do you do so much pranayama? Why do you do this? Why do you do that? I said, because I want that experience of the Self. I want that realization. Yes. And they'd look at me, and they'd say, why you have this whole phenomenon world available to you with all this greatness? Why would you want to do something like that? And I would look at them, and I think, Wow. I thought everybody wanted this. So when you when we see it like this, and that's why it made me laugh, because 5000 years ago, they knew that some don't care. It took me a long, lot longer to figure that out. But when you see someone, when you meet someone, or even you experience it yourself that really wants this like their hair is on fire. They want it so much. This is where we get that. This is where it comes from, that that yearning, that that craving to know and here we have it.

Kamala Rose: 6:00

I remember my first experience in what I could call cosmic consciousness, or that, that that place of just ultimate spaciousness where, you know, I had just a tremendous awakening experience where it felt like I had at the disposal all of the all of the answers to things, and it was so wonderful. And I felt like it was what I had always been chasing, and all the things that I had done, extreme experiences and psychedelics and, you know, risk taking things like that. I had found what I was looking for. And it is shocking when you realize that everyone is not only are they not consciously looking for it, even when you tell them about it, they don't seem to care. They just say, That's so nice for you that you've had that great sometimes it's almost the opposite.

Nischala Joy Devi: 7:04

It's like, I don't want that. I don't want to be have any part of that, because they realize that they have to give up something to get that. And most people don't want to give up anything. So going for something that's so elusive, so hard to catch and hold in your hand, and yet they're giving up other things. So I think the fact that they put that in is just so brilliant, because many don't care. There's many that don't care, and you um, I wonder why. That's what I wonder, why? Why don't people care? Why don't they want this? It's them. It's not something on the outside. But that's what then they do, to make to placate, to make them feel better. They create something on the outside that is not them, and that's easier to understand as a high being, like the saints and sages, etc. But they're just like us. The only thing is, they remember who they are, and we don't. That's it again.

Kamala Rose: 8:21

We're on the mystical which is another octave. It's another octave from religion, not the same as being a devout participant in any religious faith. Mystical experience transcends religion. It can happen spontaneously. It can happen through practice, and it does not fit into the rules, especially of religion. This idea of a self as an eternal nature is, I think, being really emphasized here at the beginning of Krishnas dialog with Arjuna, because, you know, we're getting the idea of a an ultimate goal, a place or a space that is our true identity, that is beyond anything that we currently know. Like you said, nishilla, people really do put up constructs around them that you know, whether that's personality and career and the roles that we play in the world, and that can be our religious participation as well, right where we just find a way of of living a good, comfortable life. But again, this is, I think the idea here in the Gita is of a jivan Mukta, of someone who is who is experiencing this while alive. So generally, in Christianity, we think about this type of mystical experience as happening when you die. Yes, right, and this is very much the subject. That we're talking about whether or not to kill these warriors on the battlefield, and that everyone present will will pass away. So we're dealing a lot with the reality of life and death. So this idea of the the self that is very much the subject of the those very those esoteric Upanishads, again, the Gita is bringing this forward and saying, This is the goal. This is the thing to be known. And this can be done while you are here, while you are alive. You can become someone who is literally freed alive, and live your life in that awareness, which makes this pretty groundbreaking theology, a little a little, I think, some, some important shades different than Christianity. And

Nischala Joy Devi: 10:55

you're saying, Yeah, I was gonna say it's definitely more empowering. Yes, up to us now through practice. Yeah, it's not someone that's judging us and deciding whether we deserve it. This is something that we we accomplished through practice as we're sloughing off the different layers, getting to that true self. Sorry, that's so

Kamala Rose: 11:20

important that just emphasizing that, as we have been today, about the importance of practice and the purpose of this and is to is to realize the Self, and yoga brings us that direct experience which really sets it apart.

Nischala Joy Devi: 11:39

You know, I think it's also interesting, and you probably have experienced this also having been a monastic, that when people found out that I was a monastic, they would say, oh, that's what I want to do. I just want to I just want to leave everything behind and go into a an ashram or a monastery for a couple of years and just meditate. And then they start talking to me about it, and they realize what it is, what that means. That means renouncing your whole life that you have put together for many, many years, your family, your what, who you think you are, and you're donning a another personality, another persona that now only wants one thing, and that's realization of the Self. Everything else is around it to help, the Karma Yoga, the meditation, the asanas, the anything else it but that's the goal. And when I say that to them, they say, Oh, I don't think I'm ready for that, right? They always say that, and it makes me smile again like this, because what's it going to take to get ready? Paramahamsa Yogananda had a beautiful quote. He said to me, he said, Don't come to me in the winter of your life if you haven't been there in the springtime. And at first, I thought that was a little harsh, you know, what does that mean? He doesn't care. He doesn't want to take people and as disciples, has nothing to do with that. It's the length of time, of practice, the dedication over years, and your life is changing when maybe when you started, you had small children now they're in high school. Your things on the outside have changed, but you haven't changed, and your practice has to change. And I think this is really what they're trying to say. Here is stay focused on that which never changes, because everything else will change. Bring heartache or joy, but something will change.

Kamala Rose: 14:03

We're lucky if we have experienced this when we're young, because then it even if, even if, one does not become a monastic. I was 23 when I became a novice, and spent many years as a few years as a novice, and then, right? Just, you know, dealing with, dealing with letting go of so many of the outer things, right? It takes time you don't just, you know, walk out, you know, you have to handle that. And it's lucky if we find this insight early, because it can inform the choices that we make throughout our lives, whether, whether we become a monastic or we take up a dedicated daily practice, and, you know, the inspiration, the cause, the the why of of so many of the choice. Choices that we make again in the monastery or out of the monastery were we're placing a priority on a rare, rarefied experience, yes, and then by the time we're into the later parts of our lives, we may be very ready. You know, the the four ashrama system in in India really speaks of that of having a time in your life where you are gaining and you're creating and you're making, you're making family and career, right? How wonderful to have that insight into who you really are as you're doing that as you're building a life here in the world, and then when you're older and time to stop making things and start letting go of things. We're ready and we can let go and continue to let go until only the self remains absolutely what a wonderful goal.

Nischala Joy Devi: 16:02

It Well, it is. It makes sense. It makes sense. I think the other thing that I always have to remind people is going into a convent or a Ashram is not an escape. Another quote by Paramahamsa Yogananda, he said, the ashram will protect you from the world. But who will protect you from the ashram? Because they're not saints in there. They're just people trying to do their best to get themselves a little bit of a higher consciousness. So it's a very different kind of thing. It's not an escape, and that's for sure. I think also when we talk about the four ashramas, I just like to name them for people, in case they're not familiar. But the first is Brahmacharya. And Brahmacharya is what we consider the student phase. And this is the phase where you're gathering information. You're in school, you're gathering, you have teachers, you're gathering information to figure out what you want to do in your life. And then you enter into and generally, there are 25 year cycles, so zero to 25 and then 25 to 50, you would take a partner, you'd have a career or a job, and you'd start making money, raising a family, etc, etc. And then you enter into the vanaprastha stage, where the children are older. You then turn more towards spiritual so say you do 5050, your 50% work, 50% spirituality, and then you finally come to sannyas, which is total renunciation of the world. To me, there's a very there's a lot of similarities between the first, the Brahmacharya and the Sannyas. Matter of fact, when we took vows, my first vow was Brahmacharya vows. We took vows as it became became brahmachari and and then we took our final vows. We took Sannyas. So it's almost like the brahmachari stages. I'm going to try this and see what it's like to dedicate my life to my spiritual growth and development. But I'm also internally smiling because it looks, it seems like Kamala and you and I did it a little bit out of order too, and which happens in the in the more modern times, we don't follow quite the same and we're also in a very different culture. But very few have that real monastic opportunity, because we don't have to think about what we eat, what we wear, where we're going to sleep, what we're going to do, everything is decided, which takes the pressure away and allows us to focus on our meditation people. Someone who has three children and is keeping down two jobs doesn't have that luxury, and I think this is what we have to let them know, is you can focus on that part even in the midst of your job, you don't have to renounce the world for it.

Kamala Rose: 19:26

This is the Gita strength, yeah, speaking to, speaking to Arjuna here on an obviously a very important day for him, but nonetheless, he's speaking to him in his capacity at work, essentially in the world. Yeah, this is work. He's teaching him about yoga at his job. And he's telling him as we as he started the dialog. He said, change the way you see, right? Change the way you see. This. You. Seeing a bunch of people that you believe are in this drama as it's unfolding. I mean, what if we talk to ourselves when we're at work like this, and just said, you know, we see this like great battle between, you know, the cool people and, you know, temp work, or whatever it is that whatever the dynamic is. But the point is that we believe it to be so real that drama, we believe every bit of it, and have a hard time taking a step back and seeing that these people will go home at the end of the day to their lives and interact with their families and the places where they live. And you know all of this will change. These people will live their lives, and when their lives are over, they'll pass away. That person is temporary, that body is temporary. Yet all of us have the self as the indweller. In verse 30, the self is the indweller of all beings, and it never dies. Therefore, it's not necessary to grieve for anyone. If we brought this awareness into all of the corners of our lives and saw that each person, whether we see them as a mentor or someone who should be respected or venerated in some way you know, a close peer, a friend that we have a loving relationship with, the countless strangers that we interact with every day, and even people that get on our nerves we find irritating difficult to work with, and even people who we find find no love whatsoever for the self is the indweller in all beings. This is really the basis of the meta prayer to look on all beings with the eyes of an inherent equality and equanimity. And when we do this, I think it teaches our hearts to expand, to include those who we would we might shut out of our hearts, but it requires a shift in perspective, and that's really, I think, what Krishna is teaching here is change the way you see it, whatever you are, whatever scenario, whatever drama is unfolding in your life, just like this drama for Arjuna to see with The eyes of spiritual vision is to see the inherent unity in all things and the temporary nature that clothes it as the dramas that we experience as everyday life.

Nischala Joy Devi: 22:55

Swami Vivekananda being a both a great Yani and a great bhakti. At the same time, he was a poet, and he wrote many extraordinary poems, and the line from one of them fits right in here. He says to those that lowly creep, I am the self and all. And I think every time I see a bug crawling, I think of that because we tend to compartmentalize, and we think only those with two legs or three legs or whatever it is, are the best. And we have to realize that that spirit is everywhere, everywhere. It's a little bit sometimes, and I think this happens probably more when we're younger, but to a certain extent, also, you have a teacher in school, say, you're in third grade, and you see that teacher only in the classroom. That's that's your whole view of that teacher. And then on Saturday, your mother took you to the supermarket, and in walks that teacher, and you're shocked. How can you be here? You belong in the classroom. This isn't the place for you. And I think this is what also happens with the spirit and the divine, we think it only belongs in church or temple or synagogue or wherever, and that once we walk out, it has nothing to do with us. Whereas every grocery store we go into, every gas station, every clothing store, everywhere we walk in and there's the divine right in front of us, whether it's at the cashier, whether it's it's getting stocking or cutting some tofu for us, or whatever it is. So we tend to be very compartmentalized and very small. In our thinking, and what the Gita is asking us to do is expand past those boundaries. Go beyond that. Don't just see them in a place that's a good start. They're in this this deity, they're in this form. That's a good start, but don't leave it there. Keep it going. See it everywhere that you look. Then when we go back to that same sloka, it becomes very different. We suddenly understand it. We may not be able to articulate it, because it's not really in words, but we have the feeling this is someone who also has a divine in them, and then it starts to go out exponentially. So it starts simple, and it goes out from there, and also the power of other people around you that remind you, and that's why, to me, I love what we're doing with this, because it really helps people to understand there's other ways of looking at the Bhagavad Gita and taking it into your life,

Kamala Rose: 26:14

absolutely, especially this next section. We're at 231 now for you being a warrior from the kshetra class, Arjuna, this is your duty, for there is nothing higher than a righteous war. Happy indeed are the Kshatriyas being called to battle. It is their way. Oh, it is their way to open the gate to heaven, right? So we're getting this. We've been having this wonderful dialog about the eternal nature of the self, and we're back to this, this dialog on the battle of krushetra and how important it is that Arjuna does his duty. And I know in reading the Gita over the years, it always kind of comes as a shock when we've been we've been kind of out in the stratosphere, considering the transcendent, and we're back to the battlefield.

Nischala Joy Devi: 27:22

Go ahead. In a way, it's not unusual, because I think of that expression that says, The Hand That Rocks the Cradle rules the world. So it's almost like he gave him this very high ideal of the self and the expansion of it, and that's being held in one hand, and then he's moving back to the kshatri Dharma on the other hand. So I think he's sort of doing a push me, pull me, because,

Kamala Rose: 27:59

and I think as teachers, we sometimes do this when it seems to be getting too deep for a student, or you start to see their eyes go in circles, you switch to something. Okay, let's stand up and stretch right, or let's take a deep breath, or something. So that, to me, is what he's doing here. He got them to one point, and now he's back to this is your dharma. Maybe it's not right, but that's how I see it. No, I think you're I think you're absolutely right. And think he's reminding him that, you know, we've paused this battle, and here we are on we are here in the battlefield, and Arjuna, I think it's very much associated, right? He's showing them. Now for you, how you would realize this eternal nature is by doing your duty. Yes, this is exactly. This is an Indian idea. We just this is not, this is not a component of Christianity, the same way it is as as it is here in the Gita. By doing his duty, by being a warrior of the kshetra class. He says, There's nothing higher than a righteous war, right? For any warrior who's called into such a righteous battle, it's the the heavens are opening wide, right? So this is like. This is like the Vikings in their quest for Valhalla. This is the kshetra warriors and the promise of the svarga loka of going to this highest heaven. This, this wonderful happy place where their ancestors live, right? A place where they are rewarded for their efforts, right? So it's it's making this battle of krushetra into that kind of scenario for this kind of. A person, Krishna is saying that this Dharma that you're doing right now actually has the potential to produce the results that I'm talking about with this eternal self, right? So I think while there certainly is a connection, I think it's important as modern students to recognize that there's a connection here. I think it's also appropriate for us to, you know, to feel a little distance from the language and a little different difficulty and understanding. If you're not a soldier. How would that apply to me? Right? How does that apply in current times? Because reconciling a righteous war with the path of yoga is one of the conundrums that we come to with the Gita that we've talked about so much. I'll just read the rest of this, and we can just discuss it all together. He says, If you abandon your duty, you will lose honor, name and fame. All people will speak of your dishonor, and to one who's honored, dishonor is worse than mortality. Moreover, those from whom you received honor would think that you turned away from the battle out of fear and regard you with little respect hereafter, right? So he's talking about his legacy. Your enemies belittle your ability in various ways speak words of ill fame and shame about you. What is more painful than this? If you're killed in the battle, you'll go to heaven. If you win, you'll enjoy the earth. Therefore arise. Resolve to fight, having an equal mind in pain and pleasure, gain and loss, victory and defeat engage in battle, and thereby you will not incur karma, right? So we've got a whole section here that is really speaking to this sense of duty.

Nischala Joy Devi: 32:19

But I'm looking at this and I'm feeling a little bit of the Trickster in Krishna, in that he he's pulling away from the original reason for this battle, and the the land dispute, etc. And what he's doing, at least in my estimation, he's moving him into a whole other aspect of knowing himself, the self. So he's using the battle, which was originally done because of this war, of this sorry land dispute. And now he's saying, if you do this, you will now know yourself. So I think it's kind of a bait and switch, because I think if he offered this to Arjuna, if Krishna offered this to Arjuna in the beginning, like that, he might have said, No. He said, This is a land dispute. This has nothing to do with this. But I see that if Krishna allows him to know him, allows Arjuna to know himself, then all this becomes superfluous. In a way, he knows what his duty is. He knows what he's supposed to do. So to me, that's how I see it is a little bit of a trick, and trying to get him to do the battle knowing that he's going to realize himself when he does that.

Kamala Rose: 33:55

So the path to realize himself?

Nischala Joy Devi: 33:57

Yeah, exactly. So to me, that's it's I smile when I read it, because to me, it's a little bit of a humor in it. Yeah, here do this and yeah, you'll get your land back, but you're going to get much more than your land back. You're going to get knowing to know yourself. So that's how I see this, as a little bit off the the main path in that way, and it makes me laugh. One other thing I wanted to say, I think Christianity did have this. They had the Crusades, yes, and we, I don't want to get into the history of the Crusades, because our time is limited. But I think there's, there's a certain way when a religion is being built or being sustained that that people feel that you need. To protect it in some way. So to me, it's it's it's along those lines. And again, because it started out with a land dispute, and now it's traversing into something that's a spiritual practice, a spiritual path, a spiritual realization,

Kamala Rose: 35:23

yeah, yes. And all that we're reading here are, it's a it's like a condensed version of kshetra dharma. And as you said, Arjuna knows what his duty is. He knows that he is there, as you know, first and foremost for kshetra warrior would be to keep the peace will be, and every effort was made to keep the peace in this situation, it was only at the very last moment that war became inevitable, and that was because the Coronavirus were going to fight regardless if the Pandavas showed up, right? They were going to take them down. So we're again, we're seeing this, this dialog about the ethics of warfare when it would be appropriate for kings and such people who are in that who function that way in society, as rulers, as managers, as governors, as police, as military. I get a chance to see where I live in the mountains. We all. We have firefighters. We have Forest Service who are around we, I've met a lot of female workers, right? There's so many of these, these essential emergency services and peacekeeping services that are the Army Corps of Engineers and maintaining infrastructure, right, right? Right? And this is, you know, I see the duty in this, and the the pride in this type of work to, you know, keep keep the people safe. And this is really what the kshetra Dharma centers around, keeping the people safe, protecting the land, keeping safety so that people can thrive and live. They were also concerned with the administration of justice, right when decisions were made, mediations were done, and I think this plays a lot into the story of the Bhagavad Gita is we're continually coming back to the idea that this is that it's the right thing justice as a, you know, as a cultural and civic imperative, that things remain balanced when wrongdoing happens, there has to be appropriate punishment for that right, and that falls on someone to do that, and that was the Kshatriya war warriors and or this whole class, which is a lot more than warriors, as we have talked about before, it's not just military people. There's a lot of jobs in this, but any way that there is, decisions have to be made for the welfare of everyone. I think this is, again, what we're what we're looking at. You know, in that honor is the most important thing, right? So Krishna is addressing that by saying, If you abandon your duty, you will lose honor. You'll lose your the standing of your good name to all these people who respect you and who doesn't feel that, who doesn't feel you know the fear of losing your good name, being ostracized, right, losing your reputation. I mean, who doesn't feel that that would be a huge loss for one who's honored dishonor, to lose one's reputation and to be thought of as contrary to who you are. I can't think I agree. I think that would be a worse than death to be, you know, to be considered a poser or you weren't. You weren't real, you lied, you were dishonorable, you went against your word. And I think that's what he's what he's bringing up here.

Nischala Joy Devi: 39:49

I think that happens on a regular basis, and I'm not sure that can be stopped. The only thing that can stop it is. If you know who you are. And I think it all goes back to that people can call you whatever they want, but if you really know and you know yourself, it doesn't affect you in the same way. And this so again, I think there's two there's at least two layers probably more going through whatever he's saying. It also has another meaning here. And so this is something that, when I think of the honor and that whole idea, I really I think of a courtroom, because in the courtroom, there has to be that. There's that honor the the judge is plays God in a certain way in the courtroom, and we have to stand up when they come into the room. We stand up when they leave the room. Their word is law. You go against them, you get put in jail. So here we are again looking at this idea of honor and looking at this idea of justice, because they can't be fighting the whole time. There's not wars going on constantly, at least in this stage of history. So after the war, they do become what you were talking about, the peacekeepers, the ones that if something happens to you, who do you call? Well, we all know we call a number, and when we call that number, someone comes to help us. Well, who are those people? They've given their life to the service of helping other people. So this K shotra Dharma that we're talking about, I think we have to get off the idea that it's only soldiers and only war, and see them as living among us and helping, protecting, yeah, and and protecting against fire and police and and firefighters and all these services that we we really take for granted until you need that, and when you need it, you really want someone there. So I think it's helpful to really expand that, that idea of what they do, because we're looking at a sliver of what they do, and this is because we're focusing on this war that comes from the Mahabharata. But in actuality, it's a very small time, and the war will be over. What do they do then? Then they have to keep their honor, and they have to keep their integrity to then do peacekeeping. So it all makes sense when you look at it bigger, when you stay small, it doesn't always make sense, but to go bigger, it makes sense,

Kamala Rose: 43:01

truly. And I think it's also worth mentioning here that justice and the performance of Justice, the you know, the the fight, the Preserve, preservation of justice. These are, let's see how to say it, right? When, when we, when we look at big stories like this, right? That are teaching stories we have in this story justice is why it's the pinnacle, it's what we're fighting for, right? But there have been many, there have been many feminist philosophers who have you have taken a look at some of these, these stories that have been used to teach us culturally, and have found that justice is not necessarily the the ethical measurement for women, right? We but as women, we may feel that we may very much resonate with justice. May say, you know, I know exactly the right thing to do, and it's important for me to do that. But some feminist philosophers like Carol Gilligan really questioned whether women resonated with justice as our like in in the purposeful sense of ourselves. She found that among women and for women, our highest ethical metric was our ability to care just to take care of right? So it's almost like, if we reread this from a feminist a feminine lens, we would be looking at it and saying, if you choose not to help, and. And and help those people who need you, it would be like walking away from, you know, the good feelings that people have towards you, the respect that you've earned from a hard the hard work that you've done throughout your life, right? I think if we reframe it for ourselves with, I don't want to put all women into a box and say that, you know, men, men are, men are the Justice League and women are the caregivers. I think that's too binary for us. I think, yeah, I think we're all in shades in between. And I don't want to reduce women to just being the caregivers and the cooks and the baby makers?

Unknown: 45:44

No, I don't think they are. I think when, but I

Kamala Rose: 45:47

think it's, it does bring a little light in there that, yeah, we do have a metric. And I think as as women, it's not, it's, it's not, uh, you know, it's not subjugating us culturally by acknowledging that we are caregivers, and I think by nature, if we can lean into that part of who we are and see the validity of it, and see that this is So much of how we express our ethical framework.

Nischala Joy Devi: 46:23

Yeah. So a couple things that you said that I just wanted to comment on, because I think you're absolutely right on in these points when we look at what we as women do. And one of the things where we raise children, we raise children, and that's where I think our justice comes in, because your your child comes home with a black eye. What do you do? Right? So you you get the other person that may look better or worse than your son and perhaps even their parents and you, you have justice. You act as a judge at that point, you say, what happened? Who did this? Can you apologize to her? Can you he? You apologize to him? So I think mothers have that role. We have to, we have to be neutral and teach the children. And that's where this comes in. Again, this this idea of kshatra Dharma also probably, and it's changed now, but nursing, which came about in the 1800s with Florence Nightingale basically comes from the word nurture. So when we nurture, when we nurse, someone, which is has always, traditionally, up till recently, been a woman's role, you don't discriminate. I remember when I worked in the hospital, if a criminal came in, even in handcuffs, you treated them exactly the same as if a millionaire came in paying all kinds of money. And I to me, it goes back to this same we don't call it kshatra Dharma, but this is the idea of it, that we're here to do justice. We're here to be caring. That's our nature. And when we look at someone and maybe they're a rapist, and I still have to go in there and take their blood pressure and give them something to get them out of their pain, where what I would maybe like to do is let them sit with their pain, because they cause some other people pain. But we can't do that as health professionals. We have to put that aside and walk in there and serve them, and hopefully with an open heart, because what we're looking at is not them as a criminal. We're looking them as an aspect of the Divine Self. So all this comes together, and then again, I feel like that. The war, the idea is just a jump off place for going to this. This depth of knowing who we are is one way to get there, one path to get there. Yeah, absolutely, yeah, without hatred. So it's not simple. It's not simple. And I think, and that's what the idea of a scripture is. You don't just pick it up and start on page one and reach page 470 and say, Oh, that was a great book. And you close it and put it back on the shelf. This is something that we use to live our lives by. And each time you go to it, you read it, you understand it in a little bit deeper level, because you have changed. You have meditated or even. Taking a sloka and use that as the object of your meditation.

Kamala Rose: 50:05

And I think these, these ones, are asking us to look at our ethical matrix. Yeah, and even if it's a little foreign to us as Westerners, I think it's important that we are able to investigate and ask ourselves, especially as women, where do you feel a sense of duty in the world? I mean, certainly if we've been blessed with children and always have a responsibility over our children, but many of us are not called to be mothers, and that is, again, it would be a shame to reduce all women to a single role. Right? We find our sense of duty and our sense of belonging in the world in so many ways, and I know as a yoga teacher, I feel an incredible sense of caring about the tradition, and I feel a tremendous sense of caring about my students and and and that keeps me going in the way I think these verses are being addressed to Arjuna that I have a duty to do this. I have I know in my small town, I'm, that's my niche that I fit into. I'm, I'm that person people can rely on me for that job, and I get up every day without, with no reservation. I love going to my job and and sharing yoga with people, right? So I think as women, we have to, we have to dig a little deeper to reinterpret these verses for ourselves and discover what is. What is my dharma as a modern western woman? Where do I feel a sense of duty towards my civic society, towards my town, my city, my state, my country, my world. You know the people around me, how am I making the world a better place? How am I helping to uplift others and preserve a sense of moral and ethical good in the world?

Nischala Joy Devi: 52:20

I think also we need to expand our vision of what a mother is. I think as women, whether we have physically given birth or not, we are engineered for that, and in that engineering, that's that's how we become the caregivers. That's how we become the nurses and now the doctors and the fire fighters and the police and all that, expanding and knowing that no one is a stranger to us. Every child is our child, and we're everybody's mother at the same time, in the in the the expanded sense of the word, I'm not talking about wiping their noses and making sure they're wearing a coat, but really helping them to move through the world with wisdom and integrity. I think that's a duty, that's a duty.

Kamala Rose: 53:20

And I think there's a great duty to see more women carrying caring for corporations, yes and world, caring for the world, and caring as leaders in our government, and caring in academia with their PhDs, and bringing a feminine perspective into all of the spheres of life.

Nischala Joy Devi: 53:42

Absolutely, absolutely. Well, I think we've come to the end of a very interesting session today. I

Kamala Rose: 53:50

thought, I am you all for joining us today?

Nischala Joy Devi: 53:53

Just for everyone. Just be aware of your role in the world. How do you move through how do you act in the world? Who are you? Just think about it until next time this has been a woman's Gita,

Kamala Rose: 54:10

Namaste. Namaste.

Unknown: 54:14

Thank you for joining us for a women's Gita with nishtula Joy Devi and Kamala rose, we would like to express our gratitude for the ongoing support for a woman's Gita podcast and book from yoga gives back a non profit organization dedicated to the underserved women and children of India. Please join us again for our next episode coming soon. Namaste. You.