Planting Seeds of Service: A Feminine Perspective on Karma

Dive deep into the transformative power of Karma Yoga in this enlightening episode of A Women's Gita Podcast. Hosts Nischala Joy Devi and Kamala Rose explore the profound art of selfless action, offering a modern, feminine interpretation of this timeless spiritual practice.

Key Topics Discussed:

• The true meaning of Karma Yoga: Skill in action
• Understanding karma as a neutral, interconnected energy
• Different types of karma: Agami, Parabda, and Sangita
• The importance of serving without expectation of reward
• Transforming personal experiences into meaningful service
• The role of meditation and equanimity in Karma Yoga
• Practical applications of Karma Yoga in daily life
• The interconnectedness of individual and collective actions

Join us as we unravel the spiritual wisdom of the Bhagavad Gita, exploring how everyday actions can become a path to personal growth, compassion, and universal connection. Whether you're a yoga practitioner, spiritual seeker, or simply curious about living a more meaningful life, this episode offers profound insights into the art of selfless service.

Transcript

Lilavati Eberle: 0:02

Namaste. Welcome to a woman's Gita podcast, a modern discussion of the Bhagavad Gita by and for Western women. A women's Gita features discussions on the Bhagavad Gita, the timeless classic of Eastern wisdom, reinterpreted from the perspective of two female teachers, your hosts are nistula Joy, Davey and Kamala Rose, who have dedicated their lives to the yoga tradition at a time when women's voices are finally emerging, a feminine perspective of the wartime treatise could not be more timely.

Kamala Rose: 0:42

Namaste, thanks for joining us today for a woman's Gita Podcast. I'm Kamala rose

Nischala Joy Devi: 0:48

and I'm Nischala Joy Devi. Today we

Kamala Rose: 0:51

are continuing our dialog on Chapter Two, since it's so packed, really an overview of the whole Bhagavad Gita. Today we're talking about karma yoga, one of the yogas of the Bhagavad Gita that deals with our action in the world the way we think about our action in the world. And as we're starting here on verse 50, really the interior, the interior point of equanimity in our minds that enables us to approach our lives in a way where we have an equanimity or an equality towards All. Nishala, would you like to start with verse 50?

Nischala Joy Devi: 1:43

Sure 250 the practice of yoga frees one from karma. Therefore, devote yourself to yoga. Yoga is skill in action. I think this is probably one of the famous definitions of yoga from the Bhagavad Gita. And it's interesting that it's talking about action, karma, meaning action. And sometimes I think people who practice these different yogas think that karma yoga isn't as important as some of the other ones, because you don't see the great yogi sitting cross legged, eyes turned upward, seeking the Samadhi. Instead, you may see someone standing in a kitchen with rubber gloves washing dishes, and you think to yourself, oh, that's not real yoga. Actually. That might be more real yoga than sitting cross legged and gazing upward in that when we are in meditation, or attempting to go into meditation, or at least sitting in the position of meditation, we may have an illusion, because no one's challenging us. So we sit there and we think, Oh, I'm getting very spiritual. I'm feeling very centered. I'm feeling very happy. And then you can remain so, because no one's there to challenge. However, if you're doing service seva or Karma Yoga, as we call it, that's not the case. There may be someone telling you you're not washing the dishes the right way, or you're being too rough with the dishes, or whatever it is, your apron is tied wrong. So there's always somebody to challenge you. That's when you really understand what the practices have done and how they have kept the mind in a position that you don't react instead of you may act but not react to the person that is criticizing or telling you how you need to do something. So I it, it's always a real acid test, in a way, to see how far are we how how much did we progress? Are we able to take on people's criticisms, or do things that are sometimes thought of as beneath us to really do this in that particular way. And it always brings me back to a quote from Mother Teresa when she said, The The miracle is not that we do this work, because she always did the the hardest, the poorest of the poor, etc. The miracle is not that we do this work. The miracle is that we love to do this work. And I think this is where bhakti yoga melds with Karma Yoga, because if you love what you're doing, or you love the peace. People, or the person that you're serving, or the animal you're serving, or the tree you're serving. Everything changes. It's no longer just service. It's now service infused with love.

Kamala Rose: 5:16

And here in verse 50, this the final statement, yoga karma, kausalam, yoga is skill in action really speaks to that that applied equanimity, right? I think you're so right to bring up the point that everything is perfect when it is when your eyes are closed and you're sitting quietly in meditation by yourself. Everything is fine. Where the world has no has no negative stimulus, right? We are not interacting with others. It's a time of quiet reflection, and really the time that we are developing the skill of engaging through the buddhi, through the higher mind, through the wisdom faculty, through the higher intellect, right where we are. We're developing the skill of seeing the world through the lens, rather than of I seeing the world through the lens of a we right, while we need the internal work to do that. Here the Gita asks us to apply it in everyday life and in the way we live, and that doing this is skillful action, right? Seeing the world in a higher way, in a different way, is skillful action. So both of us as lifelong karma yogis, really, I think we have a lot to say on on What is Karma Yoga. And I think for me, the first part is to just sort of enunciate that a little a little more, that there's what happens inside your personal mind, privately, and then there's the work of taking it into the world, which inevitably confronts the reality that there's other people there, right? There's often inconvenient, you know, things that you like, things that you don't like, things that you would like to do, things that you would not like to do. And it really, I think, as you said, it's an acid test of, can you act in on behalf of a we or do we allow our likes and dislikes of this individual person to get in the way of who or how we're able to serve. I think understanding what Karma Yoga is as a means of subduing the ego, or transforming the ego into a someone who is serving humanity, rather than someone who is expecting to be served by humanity, is, I think, a pretty good definition of what Karma Yoga aims to do, that through our action in the world, we are able to transcend ourselves or transcend the personal right, taking action that doesn't just benefit me alone, right, serving self interest, action that benefits everyone, and in a very practical, applied way, benefits the people who are right there are close to you, the People the animal, the plants, the trees, the the earth that is that we coexist with, that we're able to think of our action in terms of the the life beyond ourselves that surrounds US,

Nischala Joy Devi: 8:59

karma. Yoga is really asking us to serve without receiving any benefit, and in actuality, it seems to be the only way to serve. If you try to make someone molded to how you believe in the world, then that's not really karma yoga. That's just influencing in a certain way. So we really look at this that there's really no reward, but isn't there? I think that's the little caveat for me, because we don't really get a reward, but yet, the feeling of satisfaction, the feeling of our heart being open, the feeling that somehow, by our tiny action, the world is somehow made better. And so don't expect the reward. But I think it usually comes. In that particular way. It's not that it's a monetary reward or anything physical, but something happens, and I really believe that that then plays into your meditation, as your heart expands, as you know that somehow you have contributed even a little bit to raising the consciousness of the world. When you sit, you become part of that, and you become an integral part of that. And everything is a little bit easier. It's it's like the old expression, when the tide rises, the the row boats rise at the same rate as the yachts, and that's the same kind of thing. We We don't expect it, but yet we we find that somehow our mind is a little more peaceful after we've fed someone who's hungry, after we've closed someone who doesn't have after we help build a house for someone or do some small act we sit, and it's almost a sense of satisfaction, but that I would put more in an ego place. This is more of a a hum rather than a cheer. You just sit there, and suddenly everything in you, your whole nervous system is humming because something has changed and you're taking part in it. So I think that that's something to really understand. A real karma yogi doesn't wait for a thank you. They just leave. There was a TV show many, many years ago, and they've brought it back somewhat, called The Lone Ranger, and the Lone Ranger came and did good things for people, but never waited for a thank you. He was the first Karma Yoga in that way. I really meant and and He'd ride away on his horse, and people would say, who was that masked man? We don't know, but he did this good and he didn't wait for a thank you. So we're being seen in some places that this is the way to live our lives. Stop thinking of only yourself, and start thinking of others and what they need, and that will also make you happy

Kamala Rose: 12:22

and part of that is to not expect the reward of our actions, which gets to this deeper message that we've been covering here in chapter two, is that we have a right to our actions, but not to the results of our actions. Right? We can act. We can, you know, we can, we can be, we can give, we can teach, right? Both of us are, are yoga teachers, and we've got many yoga teachers listening. We have yoga practitioners listening here, right? So, you know, if we just use that as an example, do do I teach so that I have reward from my students, that they say thank you or that I'm, you know, being paid, right? We're really looking for what inspires us beyond the transactional nature of life, which is one way that we can define karma, is the transactional relationship with the world that I do, I act, I perform action, and I receive something back for that. Right? There's a transaction for my time, my energy and my output. Right? In Karma Yoga, it's kind of throwing that on its end and saying you have a right to your action, but not to the results of your action. And I think there's a lot to unpack in that when we're when we're when we're looking for this idea of skill in action, right? Because we don't want to approach it that we're giving everything away and not thinking about any consequences, right? That's not what it means, but it does mean that we have to learn to to act from a deeper core. And I think this is what you were just getting into, is we're coming from a deeper place, a relationship with our action that is beyond transactional. I would do it anyway. I would do it because it's what I was born to do and what I must do, and is a thank you. Nice. Is remuneration appreciated? Yes, but we're not doing it solely for that motive. Yeah, right. So Karma Yoga is far beyond just volunteering or just pitching in for an afternoon in an activity, that, although it could be that for many people, right, you might, you know, spending an afternoon in an ashram or at a food kitchen, or maybe you volunteered in the recent fires and. Los Angeles, right? There's many ways we can volunteer for a short period of time, but Karma Yoga is really getting to a way of being that's beyond that, a way of thinking of being that's approaching action, not as just a temporary transaction, but a way of being in the world where we are of service to others. We are helpful in helping others, and in doing that, we're getting beyond ourselves and beyond the personal, self satisfying motives that motivate ordinary individuals. Yeah, so the power to transform through Karma Yoga is extraordinary. We both know this, but right there's also, there's also some things to unpack, I think, so we can make this hopefully clear for our students and for our listeners.

Nischala Joy Devi: 16:04

Also, I think we really need to look at what karma is in our society. It's we oversimplify everything, and karma has become a buzz word, a catch word, and I don't think most people really understand it, because we don't think like that, but what we look at karma is really a neutral energy. It's a little bit like electricity. When it comes into your home, it's, it's, it's electricity. It's neither good nor bad, and neither is karma. Karmas is not neutral energy. That's neither good or bad. And people like to say, Oh, that's my good karma, that's my bad karma. But karma actually isn't it's just, you can think of it like electricity, like a lesson, like something that's just coming in, in its neutral state. The question is, how do we use it? That's the question. So getting back to electricity, if you plug a lamp and it's dark, you say, oh, electricity is wonderful. It gave me light. If you plug your finger and you get a shock, you say, oh, there's electricity is bad. I just got a shock from it, and it's the same thing here we have something happened to us, and we don't know what the ramifications really are. We just see the immediate we say, Oh, I hurt my leg, therefore I can't run in the marathon. Well, suppose something happened, or suppose something saved you on the way to that. We don't really know that. So when we talk about karma, we have to think of it as this ever spinning wheel, this Wheel of Karma that we keep going through, and we keep creating more and more karma by our actions. When we talk about karma yoga, it's a way to get out of our own actions. It's almost a way to get out of our own way and allow ourselves to do things for the sake of others or for the sake of the act itself, without looking for a reward. What do I get out of this. If I feed this person, what do I get out of it? Well, you get out of it that you fed a person, that's what you got out of it. So this karma, this idea that we have, all this karma that we have to get rid of, is really not the way to think about it. What we want to do is we want to neutralize everything to the point where anything we do helps our spiritual growth and development, nothing hinders us. Everything is our whole life, and this is real to me. Really what yoga is. It's not sitting on a mat. It's not sitting on a cushion. It's does your whole life go into that one point that everything is taking you to that? Because if you start doing action that takes you away from that, then your trajectory is slowed to a point it may even slow that you have to go back even and do some other things to bring it So Karma Yoga seems to be something that's honored in every tradition. We all know that the more we serve, the more pure we become in mind and heart, and then when we go to sit for something as subtle as meditation. It's available to us because we have purified it in our everyday life. So this, this whole idea of, oh, I have so much bad karma. If you think you have bad karma, go out and serve someone, feed someone. Clothe someone, talk to someone who's lonely. It doesn't even have to be complicated or expensive, just talk to somebody. Smile at somebody with all your heart and that that gets us out of this wheel that's constantly spinning, constantly going of karma, and then we're able to move toward the source of really who we are, into the light. And then the added benefit to this, because I just said there's no benefit, but there's one another benefit. You start to see that same light in everyone you serve, then that's real Karma Yoga. You and that person have become almost one. You're not serving them anymore. You're serving the greater, the whole, the complete.

Kamala Rose: 20:57

I'd like to just add a little bit to that view of karma. Because really, we can't understand karma yoga without understanding what is karma? What is it that we are transcending? How is it that in the midst of ordinary life, when serving another, we can become one? You know, does this? How does this work? I think one of my ideas of karma that's been with me for many years is that we're talking about the the realm of time and space that we move in, right? We can define it as as time, right? It takes a day a month a year for X experience to happen, and it happens in a space at locations all over the earth, right? When we're in karma, we're seeing just ourselves in this, right, my day, my week, my month, my place that I belong to my activities, right? But I think part of understanding karma, for me, has been knowing that it's not just me in my actions, in this space, this is made up by all of our actions. Right? Karma is a place of collective action, where all of us are intertwined, bound together by our actions, right? I can act in in this way. I can, you know, rake the leaves in the yard, and it's seemingly an individual activity, but in truth, that action affects my neighbors, right, and how the rushing waters outside will flow through the yard whether or not I move the leaves out of the way, right? I think understanding that our actions, our individual karma, is actually related very closely, especially to the people that we live with, to the people who are our neighbors, to the people who we interact with at work, to the people who we form communities with, and to our larger world. So often, when, when thinking about, what is the best action right in Karma Yoga, what is the skill in action here, I always ask myself, how, how does this benefit all of us, rather than just me? What is the best thing to do for everyone, right? And maybe that is sweet, you know, just raking the leaves so that the rushing waters don't flood my neighborhood, for example. Or, you know what kinds of actions will benefit all of us? You use the example of feeding others, of taking care of those around us. And I firmly believe that this makes our community stronger, more resilient, and we help to develop a spirit of compassion in the places that we live, which is a very profound way of of acting on the world, acting our ethics into the world, right? So, seeing how karma is where we're interconnected with others, right? We can see that direct relationship between service, serving others, helping others as a means of getting beyond myself, of seeing beyond just my own actions and how it's going to make my life better, rather looking at what are the actions that will make this better for all of us?

Nischala Joy Devi: 24:46

It's it's interesting to me that we don't realize this on our daily lives, that we actually think that we're individuals, and that's very. Curious, because even if you look at a grove of trees that seem to be independent, if you go to a little bit below the surface, you see they're all interconnected. And that's the way we are with our spirits. We're all connected. And the other thing, I don't think that most of us realize that we walk around as gardeners every day, and we're putting little seeds everywhere of of our actions and how we've acted, and we bury those little seeds, and those seeds then become our karma. They germinate as karma, and it depends on how many seeds in a particular area you may have. So for instance, if someone does something unhealthy for their body, and they're doing this for year after year after year after year, and they've been told, don't do this, because this can lead to this disease, etc, etc. Well, every time that they indulge in this habit, they're planting another seed. And every time that seed is planted, and the seed is saying, this is harming the body. This is not good for the body. This is doing destruction, etc, etc, after a certain amount of those seeds are accumulated, a full blown disease could come. Maybe yes, maybe no. And then the person says, Why did I get this disease? I shouldn't have gotten this disease. And someone says, you but look, look what you did to your body all these years. So we have to also see the cause and effect of karma, what it does. Once we understand the cause and effect, then we understand why Karma Yoga works. Because if we do something without that attachment, without that expectation, then it's a neutral energy, and it comes in and the neutral energy we can use however we want, so we use it for our spiritual benefit. So I just wanted to go over very simply and quickly the different kinds of karma, because I think that might be a little link for people, first of all, to know that there is a storehouse of karma that we carry around with us, and often it's described like an archer. For some reason this fits right in the example with the Bhagavad Gita, of course, but we have this, this storehouse, the kamasala, where we all the karmas are kept so and many without getting into our incarnate reincarnation right now, but many believe we take this with us from lifetime to lifetime, the ones we don't use. So we have this storehouse of of karma, and then it is partitioned out in different ways. So the first is the Agami, and that's the actions that have already been determined. So this is the one that they take the arrow out of the quiver and they put it in the ready to shoot. But this arrow has already been shot. The Karma is already done, and this is who your parents are. As much as you would like to change them or not, you can't where you were born, etc, etc. And it used to be some other things, but now we've managed to change some other aspects of the physical but these are the things that have already been determined, whether from past lives or from early this life. And that's called Agami. And then there's a parabta that the arrow has taken. It's in the bow. It's ready to be shot. So if you want to make any changes, this is the time, if you want to make friends with your cousin Steven. This is the moment to do it, because once that arrow is shot, you may not ever be able to heal that relationship. So this is the one you do right away. And then finally, there's the San Gita. And the San gitas are really, this is the one that really we can work with it. It's not come to fruition yet, but we know somewhere it's in there. We know that we have a fear of something, or an anger towards something, and this is where pick your karma yoga, because, say you have had a childhood where you didn't have much food, and you maybe here's a little resentment and anger that some people did use that to feed people. Go and feed people. Show them this. I didn't have this, but this is what I want to give to you. If it was clothing, do the same. Find something that helps you heal any wounds that you made he have, and then move ahead with it. Move ahead with your karma. Once you have fed someone after you know what hunger is, there is a satisfaction that can't be named, and that will also help your karma.

Kamala Rose: 30:30

So really understanding ourselves, really taking I think this is one of the things we learn in meditation, and where the the beauty of buddhi, of Buddha yoga is Krishna is outlining in chapter two, helps us to have a clear view of ourselves and understand what we're working with, with those different types of karma, right? As you said, the Agami, there's some things that are predetermined in our lives and the place that you're born, the time that we're born, right, the body that you're born into, and the social conditions that come along with that, right? We're in a time of investigating all of this in our culture, and this is this right. So I think the, I think the the part in the Gita that is really highlighting the internal work says, Be realistic, be honest with yourself about who you are, the conditions that you live in, the conditions you were born into, and what could you do? What can you do in that second octave of karma, the parabda, karma, seeing what we can do, what we can change right now, the areas where we're not restricted, but we can. We can overcome incredible things. We can really change our lives, and then finally, into the San Gita to really transform by our service. But all of this, we need a clear and insightful mind to be honest with ourselves and to have an understanding about that continuity of action, right? It didn't just start right now. Today, we're coming from previous cause and effect that creates this present moment. And I think there's something so empowering about that understanding of karma that by my actions today, this could be very much change. And I think this is what skill in action is teaching us that we have. You know, we can take a sense of empowerment from this information and this understanding of karma and to really dig deep and understand who am I and how can I genuinely help people I loved what you said about the Sangeeta karma, of those potential actions, where the things that we've experienced in our lives, we have something very genuine and authentic to offer the world to make it A better place that's born out of personal experience, something that I know very deeply and I can help to make better for others. I think this is really a very essential definition of karma. Yoga is a deep seated desire to make things better, and not that it's easy, right? Not that it's easy. You still have to go beyond yourself and face your, uh, face your fears or your shortcomings to transform that,

Nischala Joy Devi: 33:53

yeah, yeah. And in the beginning, it may be forced, right? So we say, okay, holidays are coming up. There's people that are hungry. I'm going to go down and feed them. Oh, but it's a little rainy. It's a little cold today. Maybe I'll do it next week, maybe another time. But if you actually understand that people are waiting for food. You get yourself out of bed, and then the next time, it's a little easier, and by the third or fourth time, you're seeing the faces of the people and the gratitude for giving them the small amount of food, and there's no hesitation. That's when you really start seeing it, when you're understanding it from their point of view, rather than your point of view. And then eventually both of them go and you're just doing the action, but you. Try putting the heart in it. The mind will will do fine. But when the heart is there, not are you only you handing them some mashed potatoes, but you're giving them love with that, and probably that's the most important part for them. So mashed potatoes plus love equals good karma.

Kamala Rose: 35:28

That's a good prescription, because there really are so many opportunities to to make the world a better place. I love the example that you gave earlier that we're all gardeners, yeah, and one of my biggest projects has been to to learn permaculture gardening, and planted lots and lots of trees and something when you're planting a tree that is So you know has just moved my heart so much is that that tree that you're planting, it's, it's fulfilling in the moment, right? You feel good about yourself. You're helping the Earth. You're serving the earth. But when you really stop to think that that tree will outlive you, Yes, yep, right? That tree is providing happiness, probably sore shoulders from digging, right? You know, has provided a dirty, sweaty day for you that made you happy, because the smell of soil always makes us happy, right? We've, we provided for the earth, we've offset global warming, right? All in one action, amazing, right? But the idea that that tree will outlive you, yes, right? It's going to go beyond your own personal time, and even beyond your own personal space. You will no longer be there to enjoy that tree, and it seems that shooting that arrow into the future with people who you'll never know. You don't know if those are going to be good people or corrupt people. You don't know who's going to enjoy the shade of the tree. But there's something in providing, you know, or being a part of this interaction with the earth that I think, for me, is a very essential definition. I really love the idea of gardening as a way we can all do Karma Yoga, right? We can serve the earth, that's it provides for us in in every single bit of food that you eat, in every bit of water that you drink, right, that we're we're able to make the world a better place in this tiny little area. But that tiny little area affects the atmosphere and it affects every everything alive in the world today. So I think it's a great analogy for the way of thinking that is Karma Yoga right to be able to use our intelligence to determine actions that go beyond a personal benefit. In doing this, I'm transcending myself, my own personal wants and needs, and I'm contributing something that makes the world a better place, but in ways I'm not going to see immediately, right? I might derive some short term benefit. I might not right, but that's the point. Yeah, right. We we have to come to the realization that you cannot determine the results. Right? Although we take action in the world, you are not able to change the world. You are not able to fix this or change this. All you can do is your part, right? I think there's something very self transcending about this, obviously, right, that to realize that I all I can do is my part, and for my part, I hope to make it as beneficial to as many as possible. This is one of the definitions that I've read from the Dalai Lama on a positive intention, right, where we can think of our action in terms of what causes the least amount of harm to others and benefits the most. Yeah, that's yoga sutras. Yes, yes. A very simple definition, very

Nischala Joy Devi: 39:57

simple Yes. Benefit to Sam. Harm and harm to no one. Yeah,

Kamala Rose: 40:03

in the complicated world we live in today, it's hard, it's hard to track this. It's hard to know that we're connected to so many things that are that are bringing harm to others, right? So I think the choices we make about the things we buy, the things we interact with in the world, right? We have a certain amount of choice, but at a certain point, it's we, you don't know, right? We don't really know. All we can do is do our best and have the intention that our actions are harming the least possible and benefiting the most.

Nischala Joy Devi: 40:45

You know, I just want to go a little bit further on something you said, because I think it's really an important point that we may not know what we do because we're basing it on a limited knowledge. As we begin to do more karma yoga and expand more our knowledge also becomes more discriminating, and then we can make a decision, no, I think this action will help more people than this one will, and therefore I now have the skills to do it, and I'm going to do it so we can, we can start to see what this does. And also, something you said reminded me, and I the image of the game was like one person that we're so connected to the next person that when we move four steps to the right, we're pulling a whole chain with us, and we're also being pulled. We're not the set. We don't know where the chain begins and ends. We just know we're all together in this so if someone plants a tree, and then 500 years later, or 100 years later, I'm born, and I sit under that tree. Do I think, well, somebody took the time to plant this tree. Maybe their shoulders did hurt afterwards. Maybe they were exhausted, but now here am I enjoying it? Can I then thank that person? Can we go back and thank that person? Or the real question is, is it going back? Well, we'll, we'll talk about that in another session. But the the whole idea comes then with gratitude from the person who receives. So we're both, we're on both sides of this karma yoga scale. We give, but also people are giving to us at the same time. How do we accept what's given without accruing more karma? Right? How do we? And then there's some yogic principles that even say we shouldn't be accepting gifts from anyone, because there's something attached to it. But then it breaks the chain, because if we don't accept, then how can we give? Right? So there has to be a graciousness in giving and receiving. And when that happens, there's the complete there's the complete Karma Yoga, I'm giving, I'm receiving, I'm giving, I'm receiving, and I'm grateful for both. So it's a that's why I every time someone says something about karma, or I see it in the newspaper or something, I laugh because it's so complicated. There's nothing simple about karma, but each thing that we do has an effect somewhere, another on us and on the other people, also on who else you serve. So you say you're so say, say you're teaching a yoga class. It's a service. If you think of it as a service, you have a yoga class, and then it's a really good class. So the next class that came in, you already have that wonderful energy from the previous class that you are now passing through. So when you can say, in a way, the students in that first class generated enough peaceful, loving energy, and you as the conduit, take it and move it to the next one. And I think that's what we become. After a while, we become, instead of judging the Karma Yoga, we just take the energy from it and we move it forward to the next group, to our meditation, to healing, to whatever else it is. Because I think it's such a powerful energy, powerful energy, that we. Of this karma yoga

Kamala Rose: 45:03

becoming a generative force in that way, yeah, right, responding to present moment events in the interconnected whole of time and space called karma, cause and effect, right? And watching those those fruits, right, the the ripening of those karmas, right, affect other people, right? I think for the karma yogi, I you know just what you're saying, that we are, we are neutral in that way. We are simply present and using our our discernment, our higher capacity developed through meditation to discern what are the best actions. I think that teaching yoga is a very powerful karma. Yoga, I mean, can be a powerful way of serving the world, preserving a trend, a tradition, teaching practices that help to make people's lives better, right? We also know that it can be used to, you know, develop a very materialistic thing and play a part in the capitalist machine. But aside from that, right, as yoga teachers, I know we really take a great deal of meaning, great heartfelt meaning from sharing and teaching the skills of yoga and bringing the peace of a calm and centered mind into our classrooms and enabling our students to hopefully produce that on their own without having to be dependent on us all the time. I think it's a powerful intention, much like planting a tree that we are, we're providing that sort of a calm and centered service that for an hour and a half, an hour hour and a half, everyone is breathing peacefully, enjoying the calm of of a yoga class, and that is rewarding as an individual, although not something we can necessarily certainly grasp for or try to claim, try to hang on to and say, what a good yoga teacher I am, what A good job I did in the world today night to take that personal claim of the results. So karma, yoga, I think, is a is a path of learning. First and foremost, is how I know it is a path of learning, and just because you're volunteering to do something doesn't mean you're letting go of your personal needs and wants, right? It's not just because you're volunteering or just because you're volunteering in an ashram, in a spiritual place, right? You could be in a very different situation. You could be being paid for your action, and it is still pure karma yoga when you're letting go of the results of your actions. And I think this is something we should emphasize for our listeners, is it doesn't really have anything to do with being paid. No. In fact, as yoga teachers, I know we're fighting to to make sure that we're compensated for the unique work that we do. It's a big issue in our profession today, right being recognized for the unique skills that we have. It's they're rare. They're unique skills, and many of us have taken many, many years to learn these skills and are aspiring to give them to the world in a way that is, that is without restriction, right, without myself being in the way serving our fellow Humans. So it's a path, a path of learning, a path of learning about yourself, a path of learning about what it takes to serve. And as we started today, sometimes the world doesn't, you know, sometimes you get some you get some blowback, right? It's not always a walk through the through a beautiful spring garden, right? We're always going to get the reaction of others and learning to deal with that and maintain equanimity. This is Karma Yoga. You

Nischala Joy Devi: 49:36

just said some very interesting things, and I had a smile when you said, one of the things that we're doing is preserving the tradition, and I really believe we are but I also believe we're transforming it, and that's an interesting karma in itself. Just thinking about two Western women sitting here talking about the Bhagavad Gita and what it means to us in this time, what karmas did we have to bring ourselves to that? I kind of had to chuckle about that a little bit, you know, and when you were talking about as a yoga teacher, I think it's a very confusing thing in our time right now being a yoga teacher, because first of all, yoga is means so many different things to so many people. And when I was doing basic training to teach basic to a yoga teacher. One of the things I would always say to them is, at the end of class, if people just walk out and don't say anything to you, that's actually the best, right? They're in themselves. They're not thinking, Oh, this was a great class, you know? They're just thinking, Wow, I feel really good right now. I want to just be quiet and walk out and teachers get upset. Why didn't they say anything? Don't they like it? Don't they? We have to understand that if we're if our job is to help people feel peaceful, and they finally do, don't take them out of it, let them be there in it. So, and this whole idea of bringing the money into it is very tricky. It's very tricky because you have a service, a spiritual service, and then you bring money. So we have to be so vigilant that we're taking what we need, but not for the greed. That's what tips it. If you're taking what you need to, to eat, to to have your life the way you need it is one thing, but remember what we're doing, we are sparking this light of truth within each person. So if you're compensated, it's great, but you also have to make time. If you're not compensated, what can you do? How can you live? Because what I found is you start compromising your values for money. Oh, well, the yoga studio down the street teaches this kind of yoga. It's not really my kind of yoga, but look at all the students they bring in. So we get into a whole other aspect of karma. You uh, stay simple, is what I would say. Stay simple with what you do and how you use it, and make sure that if someone comes to you who can't afford it, that you take them you let them come. And I know most teachers would do this, but this is the how we perpetuate karma yoga. Even though we're getting money from it, our heart is still open in it. So it's a very complex it's very complicated. Nothing simple about it. And I would say, if you have any doubt after you do any action, sit quietly for a couple of moments and see where it feels good and where it doesn't feel good, and that will determine if the act was what we call as a perfect act, bringing benefits to some and harm to no one.

Kamala Rose: 53:45

That's a great place to wrap up. What a wonderful discussion. Nisha, thank you so much and great. Thank you to our listeners. I hope that you've already hit subscribed and hopefully left us a review on our podcast, and if there's anything else you'd like to hear us discuss, please leave it in the comments. Thank you so much for joining us today. Namaste.

Lilavati Eberle: 54:13

Thank you for joining us for a women's Gita with nistula Joy, Davie and Kamala rose. We would like to express our gratitude for the ongoing support for a woman's Gita podcast and book from yoga gives back a non profit organization dedicated to the underserved women and children of India. Please join us again for our next episode coming soon. Namaste. You.