The Wheel of Reciprocity: Karma Yoga, Service, and Self-Care

In this episode of A Woman’s Gita Podcast, Kamala Rose and Nischala Joy Devi dive deep into Chapter 3 of the Bhagavad Gita, exploring verses 3.15–3.16 on selfless action, universal consciousness (Brahman), and the great “wheel” of reciprocity that sustains life.

Drawing from the Gita, the Upanishads, and lived experience as women, teachers, and long-time practitioners, they unpack how karma yoga calls us to serve others without attachment to personal gain—while also honoring the very real need for boundaries, rest, and self-care, especially for women who are often conditioned to over-give.

Through stories, scriptural insight, and practical reflections, this conversation invites listeners to reimagine service not as self-erasure, but as a path to a lighter heart, deeper connection, and a more sustainable way of living in the world.

In this episode, we explore:

• The meaning of karma yoga and why “every selfless act is born from Brahman”
• Verse 3.16’s image of the “wheel” (chakra) and how all of life turns through reciprocity
• How universal consciousness expresses itself through everyday acts of service
• The danger of indulging the senses and living “in vain” by ignoring the needs of others
• The metaphor of weighing the heart against a feather and what makes a heart “light”
• Why every spiritual tradition emphasizes service as a way to purify the heart
• The tension between American individualism (“greed is good,” “look out for number one”) and the Gita’s call to selfless action
• The connection between happiness, attachment, and constant wanting (“25% more”)
• How art, music, and ritual keep the heart open in a culture that overvalues the mind
• The role of daily practices (like meditation, lighting a candle, morning/evening reflection) as modern equivalents of Vedic fire rituals
• The risk of burnout and over-giving, especially for women, mothers, and caregivers
• Why true service must be paired with self-care and healthy boundaries
• The Sufi teaching: “Never give from the depth of your well, only from the overflow”
• How the four āśramas (life stages) point to a natural shift toward more practice in later life
• Why it’s so helpful to begin spiritual practice early—not just in the “winter” of life

Tune in for a heartfelt, grounded exploration of what it really means to participate in the wheel of life with an open heart—offering, receiving, and learning to care for yourself as tenderly as you care for others.

Transcript

Kamala Rose: 0:39

In Progress. Namaste. Welcome to a woman's Gita Podcast. I'm Kamala rose and I'm Miss chilla joy. Davey, thanks for being here with us today. We are continuing our discussion of chapter three karma yoga, and we've come to an absolutely gorgeous verse, 315, every selfless act is born from Brahman universal consciousness, which is in every act of service, all of life functions in this way, those who violate it, indulging the senses for their own pleasure and ignore the needs of others live in vain. Let's discuss this 315 and 316 part of the foundation of karma yoga, that action is born in Brahman, and the sacrifice of action is born in Brahman, right? That is selfless action, doing action, not for oneself, personally, out of personal motive, because one has something to gain personally from it, but performing action because it needs to be done, right? I think this is the, the the foundational thought in chapter three, that there's a greater, a greater whole in which all of our individual actions exist. And this is really what I think these verses are, are teaching us that universal consciousness, or Brahman, the spirit of everything, the great whole to which we all belong, is where all action and all selflessness exists,

Nischala Joy Devi: 2:44

to me. It's it, to put it in modern terms, I think it's really about taking personal responsibility. We're we're, why are we doing these practices? Why are we growing? Why are we reading the Gita? Why are we doing all these things? We're doing these things, hopefully to elevate our consciousness. And when we elevate our consciousness, we're really uniting with this universal consciousness. We're we're at least moving toward it and trying to bring some of the qualities of that, including selfless service. So here we have this, this concept that's so big and so full the practices, the meditation brings us to it and again, we've mentioned this before. At first, we serve others, and then afterwards, after a while, we realize that we're not serving others, we're serving ourself. And I think that's what it has to get to. It's not somebody out there that needs our service. We needed to purify our own hearts. And I think that's the the crux of it for me, and that's probably why every tradition in the world has some kind of service attached to it. They know that people need to cleanse. They need to purify. We need to get to the point that when we're serving something someone, we're not thinking, Oh, that poor person. We're thinking, I'm serving myself. It's as if I'm that person. And the dignity that comes with the service is also present. It's not Oh, I'm going there and I'm giving these poor people some food. No, treat them as if you would the King and Queen, whoever it is, because they're us, just the same as the King and Queen would be us. So I think this is something that's so powerful. All life functions in this way it says, and I don't think we can say that much. It's true for many other things in our lives, but all life functions this way. Those who violate it, indulging the senses for their own pleasure and ignore the needs of others, lives in vain, and that vanity continues, then it's all about us. Well, I don't care if people are starving we that's not the universal consciousness that we're going for. That's not why we do the practices and pray and people go to different religious institutions. It's so we our hearts grow to the point where they. Meld with other hearts. And if one is suffering, we are suffering also. So the power of these two slokas to propel us into service, I think, is very strong and very telling.

Kamala Rose: 5:57

I think it gives us this big picture, that the sense of selflessness, the ability to give up, you know, my way, what I want to do, you know, thinking only of myself, which is, if we're honest about it, I think a foundation of American culture, in a way, right? Greed is good. Get more the as hard as you work. And, you know, look out for number one. And I think we're right to interrogate that idea for being fundamentally at odds with the earth unsustainable in in terms of the survival of the whole I think it's really proven itself to be limited. And I was thinking when you were reading 316 here, all of life functions this way, those who violate it, indulging the senses for their own pleasure and ignoring the needs of others. I think, I think anyone who's awake in the world today can count on each of their fingers of violation of this, of this shloka, and we can see the pain that's caused the hardship. And I would, I would wager that the pain and hardship on the part of the ones actually making those decisions is significant, and the idea to have lived in vain, right to have wasted one's life is so really, everything really, is very telling here, what what we, you know, we all question purpose. We all want to live in the world in a meaningful way. Or, I'll say, so many of us in the yoga and the wisdom communities in the world today, we're, you know, we take our we take our practice and the time allotted to us in our lives. I think, I think seriously, or that's something that yoga leads us to, to evaluate our sense of purpose and meaning and what is worth spending time and money on and I think sometimes we assume that everyone's just like us, and they are also evaluating weighing with a feather their actions. Is this worth doing? Will this help to uplift others I know for myself and so many kind, generous yoga teachers that I talk to and work with. These are very valid things that are on people's minds. But when we look around the world, we see something else. We see, you know, politicians and businessmen making decisions that are extraordinarily harmful and starving, in fact, to others. And I think the Gita is unique in that it's, it's trying to talk to everybody, right? It's talking to us, yogi's, us, kind hearted, awakening Yogi's, but it's also talking to those, the men when power and trying to give a warning that this is not a sustainable way to live. In fact, living this way breaks something fundamental out the way things should be.

Nischala Joy Devi: 9:31

I think you really hit something right there, because it's not the way we were designed. We were designed with a heart filled with love and compassion. And if you have any doubt, look at a newborn baby. They're filled with that. And what happens to us is, we call it the G factor, the greed comes in. We start to want things, and then we get the attachment we read this sloka before. It's that attachment that we keep getting. And we think we're not happy, but we think the next thing will make us happy. If I only had a new car, that would make me happy, if I only had this, that would make me happy a partner, and then that would make me happy. And then what happens when it doesn't that's the problem when we're our partner who we thought was so wonderful, we're now divorcing them. What happened? So we're we're clean, still clinging on to things that change quickly, instead of going to the. Eternal that never changes. But, you know, we talk about these things, and most people, they don't want this. They just, they just say, I just want to be happy. Well, it's not that simple, because happiness is conditional. Is you happy? Because this happened and then you're unhappy. So we really have to go towards something that's expansive. I think the the main thing that this really works on is opening the heart, and our societies now try to close the heart and open the mind. The mind is the most important thing. And I mean, just in a simple way, just look what they did to the arts, right? The art has heart in it. It's the heart. It's the heart of our cultures, whether it's a tribe in Africa that dances and sings or some great, famous painter in Europe or America or Asia or wherever. And I a musician, or whatever the art may be, it opens the heart. You listen to it. Last night, I did the dances of universal peace. We were dancing to all the great traditions. Everybody afterwards was hugging each other because your heart is open. You touched each other. And when you pass someone, either on the street, on your car, on the wherever it may be, who needs you, who needs help, and you walk past, you cannot walk past with an open heart. Your heart is like the lens of an eye with too much light. It closes. In this case, it's too much ignoring the heart closes. You know, when you mentioned the word feather, I thought I have a my favorite little story from Egypt, and I actually have a papyrus that I got when I was there last time. And what it is. It's a picture of the the the Pharaoh who just died, and he's sitting propped up, probably because they've taken his heart out. First, they bury the heart separately, and he takes his heart, and they place it on a scale, and on the other side of the scale is a feather, and they measure the weight of his heart against the feather, and if it's light enough, he gets into heaven. If the heart is heavy, it doesn't I love this. I look at it all the time because it reminds me what keeps our heart light is when we give to others we're that's where our joy comes from. That's where our peace comes from. That's where our sense of, Hmm, I've communed with another human, and we have brought them to the place where we are now in a place of Namaste, that I honor that light in you as you honor the light in me, and we are one. So I think there's so much power in this. And I and with the way it says those who violate it, not those who ignore it, but actually violate it. Wow. Very powerful.

Kamala Rose: 14:23

We have the image here of this, of reciprocity, right? The word they use here in 16 is chakra, a wheel, wheel. And this is an image taken from the Upanishads envisioning the whole of creation as a wheel that exists in reciprocity. Right? One, one, you know, one gives, one receives. This should be equal. Right? Like the like the heart and a feather, we should be able to when we pass from this world, have a heart that is light enough, right? We're no longer carrying stones of resentment, and we have undertaken the work of forgiveness, which is significant, right? This is not just about, you know, having a sort of bless your heart attitude in the world. It's about doing the hard work of letting things go, right? I think this is part of that reciprocity that keeps the wheel turning. I love. I just adore these verses, because it does speak of the Upanishads, and this, this very grand, universal vision of the functioning of life that the seers of the Upanishads came to as as a wheel turning, always in motion. All species, not just not just people, right? All species involved, the weather, right? All of the kingdoms involved, interconnected and reciprocal with each other. I think the idea here is that what makes the wheel turn is that spirit of letting go and giving up and one kingdom giving way to the next. And this is what turns it I know the seers of the Upanishads were, you know, they had some big questions that they wanted to answer. Is, who? You know, who is it? How is it that all of these species are coexisting? That's how it's amazing. It's, you know, not only existing, but evolving and diversifying and mutating, and the wonder of the natural world and the somewhat precarious nature of human beings in the midst of this interconnected world, which, again, for the seers of the Upanishad, did not end at human beings the way so often it seems to in the in Our post modern world. Right, interconnected with the devas. Right, these were the previous verses here talking about how, how ritual action, ceremony, right, which is a selfless act, something that was given to human beings to do, to help keep this wheel turning in the Vedic tradition, every household would be responsible for lighting the daily fire, for making singing the daily mantras, for playing a part in the in this great drama of life and the turning of the wheel. And in doing this, it, you know, it's the it's the way we can offset the stones in our hearts we have somewhere to be able to let go of things at the beginning of every day, at the end of every day, to be able to live in a present moment awareness, rather than plagued by the regrets of our past or the expectations of the future, I think this is very much what the Gita is trying to teach us is beginning with that present moment awareness, that engagement and and participation in life without dwelling in the regrets of the past or the expectations of the future, performing action right here right now, because it needs to be done. We know as as living human beings. This is a this is what we wrestle with all of us, when you were speaking earlier initiala about the idea of happiness, right? We have some goal that we're chasing, that somehow it should be better than this. And I remember reading a study that across incomes, right? People who are poor, people who are ultra rich, everyone wants 25% more. Yeah, yeah. Just want to be 25% richer, have a 25% better car, bigger house, more savings. And I think this is really the crux of what the Gita is trying to teach us.

Nischala Joy Devi: 19:37

I think so too, and getting back to that again, the the stones in the feather, the we don't want to wait till we die, to weigh our heart against the the the feather. We can do this on a regular basis, but it takes a lot of introspection, and I think this is what happens. And I've said this before because it's one of my favorite quotes, in a way, from the Bible, when Jesus says, Don't come before me for the altar and pray if you haven't made friends with your brother, and I think this gets back to it. It's not even that you've had an argument. Did you feed your brother? Did did you go to church and pass someone who was asking for food, and you ignored them and went in to pray? And we do this. We don't even think about it. We may be on our phones. We may be thinking about. Yeah, something else. And that lack of presence adds to our heart being heavy, because as you pass that person, at least, even if you're not going to give them money, just say hello to them. Recognize them as a human, as a fellow human being, don't ignore them. You can't ignore them. You're just cutting off your heart. So it's that, that continuum, and that that wheel often called the Wheel of Dharma, is that that wheel that keeps turning, turning, turning, and we can't stop it. I remember many years ago, there was a show on Broadway. It called it said, stop the world. I want to get off. And I just, I take that and I move that to the Wheel of Dharma, because the only way you can actually slow the Wheel of Dharma to not be creating so much is by deep practice and service. And I think the two of them go together. To me, they're counterweights to each other. If you meditate and then you serve, you serve with a different attitude than you would if you had not meditated. So there's, there's something about it that begins to come to fruition in this, in our dharma, in our movement through the world as a university that teaches us constantly who we are. These everybody you pass is a mirror for you look in it, because you're going to see these are not these are just people. They're down on their luck. Something happened that's no reason to punish them by not having a place to live, no food, etc, and for you not to smile at them and say hello when you go by. So find some way. Is it a next door neighbor that needs help someone down the street a holiday when people are alone, find something your heart will be lighter, and you'll feel that at the end of the day, sit quietly, go through your day again. Is there something that I could have done that could have helped somebody a little bit more? It could have brightened their day? Don't be hard on yourself. Don't beat yourself up, but tomorrow, do something.

Kamala Rose: 23:25

I think it's a great way to bring that, that traditional practice of a morning meditation, evening meditation, just like the agnihotra of the Vedic tradition, the early morning mantras into the sunrise and the sunset as modern people who were modern Westerners, you and I and maybe many of us, many listening to the podcast, would not know what how to do that a simple fire ceremony, right? But we can all light a candle, and we can all take time to reflect on our actions at the end of the day, at the beginning of the day. And you know, we talk about this a lot that it takes a lot of courage to in to investigate or be objective about one's own subjectivity, to be honest about, you know, I was pretty selfish. I was short. I was only thinking about myself in this situation. I couldn't smile at that person because I had to get somewhere. I'm angry with that neighbor because of X, Y and Z, and I'm holding on to it. And I think if we are taking the gitas advice that we are not to be we're not to look at the inspiration or motive for our action about trying to get something, things become a lot more clear in our mind, and we can, I think, better evaluate or be more honest with ourselves when we do encounter, yeah, I am trying to get something that transactional relationship with life that I would only do something if I'm Getting paid, or if I'm getting some sort of recognition for it. I mean, it's difficult to avoid, and we're just talking about this earlier in our capitalist world. We have to work for to support ourselves, to sustain ourselves, right? You? You and I have had long breaks from that living in an ashram world that is trying to do an alternative model, right living communally and sharing and but the truth is, in the world we live in, if we are to live in the world and be of service, which is what the Bhagavad Gita is for, we have to come to some sort of terms with the expectations, what we hope to get from performing action, and be willing to admit sometimes, yeah, I really was very selfish about that, and this is how we Learn, right? Life teaches us the tradition teaches us when, when we when we engage in practice and we engage with these ideas, I think it teaches us on a profound level to learn to be responsible for ourselves, and we can be responsible for the outcome of our actions without taking so much personal ownership. And so it's a, you know, there's a, there's a lot of deep lessons here in the in the Gita,

Nischala Joy Devi: 26:59

there's a also a point of this selfishness, because I think there's a certain amount of selfishness that we need to have, especially in the beginning of practice. There is, and I think this is particularly hard for people who have family responsibilities, especially if children are still living at home. Small children, there's a lot to do with them. The expression that a man works from son to son, but a woman's work is never done, is really, I think, part of this. And so there's a certain amount of selfishness in the beginning but I even tell young mothers, I said, get your get your children used to the fact that mommy's in meditating from this point to that point. And if you teach them as a child, then as a young child, that they expect it, and if someone comes to the door, oh no, my mom's meditating right now, you can't do that, so we have to be a little bit selfish to be selfless. If we don't take care of ourselves, then we can't take care of others. And I think this is the thing that I know a lot of people that can be selfless, but they can't take care of themselves. So what happens is we have that phenomena that is rampant all over our society, burnout. And burnout is because we have given, but we haven't restored. There's a beautiful expression in the Sufi tradition that I adhere to try to adhere to as much as possible. And it says, Never give from the depth of your well only from the overflow. And I think that puts responsibility back on us to make sure that our wells are full and even overflowing by taking care of ourselves the way it needs to be, but not just the physical. I know people spend a lot of time in the morning with their physical body, with their hair, with their face, their creams, their makeups, etc, clothes. But what about your spiritual life? I would say, spend at least, if not more time in the meditation spot than you are put getting dressed, etc. Both are important, but one will bring you lasting peace and compassion for others, and the other one won't. So make sure that you're having all this together. And when you do and you serve someone, it will be with a whole heart. And I think that's what we're really looking for. Not one part of the mind is saying, When is this going to be over? The whole heart is with someone, and they can feel it. They know when your whole heart is there. So I think this is so so important, and this then leads to the whole rest of our lives. So that dharmic wheel that we're on, that wheel of birth and death that keeps going round and round and round, we're able to slow it and decide, what do I want? What do I want? How do I want this lifetime to go? So far, I've been just working automatically. I went to school, then I went to college or went to trade school. I got married, I had children. This is what society expects. And then you get into your mid 40s. Or 50s, and you go, Whoa, okay, I did it all. I have it now. What? What do I do now? Well, that's when your spiritual life has to, has to kick in, but it can't begin it then yoga, not Paramahansa. Yogananda used to always say, Don't come to me in the winter of your life if you haven't been there in the springtime. And when I first heard it, I thought, well, that's not right. Anybody could come anytime. But then I really thought about what he was saying. How much harder is it when you're older and you're already set in your ways you don't like to get up early in the morning, whereas, if you start it when you're in your 20s or even teens, by the time you're in your 50s and 60s, it's it's commonplace, it's normal for you. So all these things, look at it now, while you still have that ability to make decisions. And also, the other thing is getting yourself in to be able to sit still. Try starting it in your 50s. It's hard, very hard because you're already have that, that rajas in you, that that movement. So it's it's tricky, and I think this is why the Bhagavad Gita has been around for so many 1000s of years. We still haven't gotten it. It would go out if we got it. The minute we say, Okay, everybody understands it, then the Bhagavad Gita is no longer useful. But until then, this is our book to teach us.

Kamala Rose: 32:21

Imagine, imagine everyone becoming so intelligent that the Gita became obsolete. I would love that. That's something to work for.

Nischala Joy Devi: 32:31

Open hearted. Everybody walks around with an open heart. Oh, boy, wouldn't that be, what a world, huh?

Kamala Rose: 32:37

What a world, what a world. But I think you're so right to bring up the the lived experience of women's lives in encountering these teachings. I mean, I think we have an inherent understanding that all of life functions in a reciprocal way, from our roles as mothers and daughters and wives and women know reciprocity. And I think what you brought up about burnout and over giving this has been a main theme of my life, and understanding that even though I understand these teachings, and I've based my life on selfless service, but I have learned the hard way that you can give too much, you can give it all away, and then where are you? Right here you are in your 50s and trying to come into the world and trying to establish boundaries in that way and stand up for yourself and try to mitigate the effects of burnout that I think it's I think it's important to acknowledge for women as we Are, that it is very possible to give too much, and at the end of the day, you might not have the energy to do that deep hour of soul searching. Before bedtime, you're crashed, you're ready to fall asleep. But if we look at it, as you're saying, as establishing the habit or the routine of claiming space for oneself's interior life, you know as as sannyasins, as monks, we often that's kind of expected of monastic is that you're giving that Time to others. You're not necessarily claiming it for yourself. You give all of your time away, but I think that's, I think it's really an incorrect interpretation of that, and which I'm responsible for. I mean, I would take responsibility, and that's something I've seen in my own meditations is girl, you got to set some boundaries and learn how to find the right amount of giving in the right effort sort of way. I think this is a deeper lesson of these verses, that you can give too much. There are times when one has to sit back and reevaluate the reciprocity. Are you receiving as much as you're giving? And I think for women, and I think for everyone, but especially for women who. Have you know who are encountering the second half of their lives and looking at a sense of agency in the world, trying to make meaningful decisions about the life that I've lived, that we've all lived, addressing this idea of living in vain, living in accordance with the way we question our legacy. What have we left to the world? How have we contributed to the world's welfare? And often find ourselves at a turning point in these later years, right? A lot of the main things that we've done for our lives are finished, like you mentioned earlier, the children are grown up and out of the home. Maybe it's time to retire from the career that was so fulfilling. You know, the world has changed, and the tools are not made for our generations as easily as they are for the younger generations. It really brings about a certain amount of soul searching, reinvestigating one's role in the world and what one's legacy will be. And when we So, I think that point about evaluating the balance and the reciprocity is very important in going forward in the second half of life.

Nischala Joy Devi: 37:20

I totally agree with you. And I mean, that's the way it was set up with the four ashramas. I think we talked about that before. There's a time where you start to withdraw from society and withdraw from family, to do more practices and more sadhna. The thing is, though, getting back to what Yogananda said, if you haven't started it, it's a very difficult time to start it. And the other thing is, it, when we were you were talking about the monastics as we're in a monastic setting, I think what people don't understand about they somehow put the word mono and monastic with being withdrawn from the world. Well, it's not necessarily so. I was very much in the world, but every day we meditated, morning, noon and night. That was part of it. And I remember there was a woman, a young woman, a journalist, that was following Mother Teresa around for the day, and at the end of the day, this young journalist in her 20s was exhausted from following Mother Teresa, who was like in her 80s. By that time, she couldn't keep up with her. And she finally said, How do you do this? Where do you get your energy from? She said, I'm so much younger than you, and I can't keep up with you. And she looked at her in her very clipped way. She said, simple mass in the morning, mass at night, and I see everyone is Jesus the rest of the day. And I went, Okay, that's the formula. She just gave us the formula. And it doesn't have to be Jesus, it can be you can substitute whatever you want for that. But the idea is the practices take you in, purify us. So when we come out to serve as a different kind of service. It's a service with joy. It's a service with love. And it's interesting, because when I was training yoga therapists, one of the things I would always say to them, because I know how difficult it is to work with people who are sick, because I've done it for my whole life, and I also know if you are not balanced and grounded, you will get right knocked right off, because their energy is like that, not purposefully, but that's how it is. It's a little chaotic when people are like that. So what I always recommended, and I'm sure no one ever did it. But if you did and you're listening, let me know that I would say to them, for every hour that you see patients or clients, you do practice in the beginning one to one. And they said, You mean, if I see five patients in a day, I should do five hours. I said yes, because right now you have to balance the inner and the outer. It's like a teeter totter. If one side is is too much, the other person will be up in the air, and you have to balance it, and this is the way you balance it. Now, maybe five years down the road, you don't have to. Do that because now you have that strength and the level of compassion that when someone is sitting in front of you, you can wrap them in that embrace them completely and make them feel safe, until then do your practices

Kamala Rose: 40:58

taking care of ourselves?

Nischala Joy Devi: 41:00

Yes. And that's good care of ourselves. Yeah.

Kamala Rose: 41:04

And isn't it interesting that we're talking about the the working of the wheel of the world, and we're thinking about all of everyone else? Yep, right. How about taking care of this person as part of the wheel of the world? Self Care. Self Care, yeah, well, I think that's a great place to wrap up for today. This has been a wonderful discussion. Thank you, and thank you all for listening,

Nischala Joy Devi: 41:33

for being here with us. Thank you. We love it. We love you being here with us.

Kamala Rose: 41:38

We love doing this podcast, and we've we've learned that we have all over 14,000 downloads, and we've been to 75 countries. And this is amazing from the dialogs that you and I first started over a year ago, that we've grown and we've got some people who are listening to us, which is absolutely wonderful. Thank you so much for

Nischala Joy Devi: 42:03

being here. Keep listening and bring a friend.

Kamala Rose: 42:06

Bring a friend. Thank you. All right, we'll wrap up for today. Namaste. Namaste.